Idea regarding circuits and NIMBYs...
Discussion
Hello all, I was chatting on another forum and came up with an idea you may like.
Its regarding the ever tightening noise and running restrictions applied to the circuits in this country, which seem to currently be (unfairly) aimed at pleasing people whose lives are shorter than that of the circuits they are complaining about.
What I am proposing(I must say now I have no real political knowledge or clout), is a grading system not too dissimilar to that of the building grading system we have in this country to protect our rich history.
A big part of that history, which is still being lead and written by the UK. Is motorsport, to protect this industry, hobby and way of life the following grades could be applied to all of the circuits in the country and even to other sporting venues, music venues, churches and the like:
Grade 1: Huge venue with massive historical value, unlimited noise restrictions 24/7.
Grade 2: Large venue with important historical value, limited noise after 8pm.
Grade 3: medium venue, over 50 years old, limited noise apart from 12 unlimited days a year.
Grade 3a:Road circuit, only 24 days of unlimited noise, with certain traffic calming hours.
Grade 4: small venue, limited noise.
Grade 4a:Road circuit, only 12 days of closed road and noise allowed a year.
Grade 5: Venue of lesser importance, strict noise regs apart from 12 days a year.
Grade 6: Unacceptable venue, no noise permitted apart from 12 days a year.
With this, the NIMBYs can check what they're getting themselves into before they buy, and they have no influence after they do, just like buying a grade 1 house. it could even be stated on house listings and the like.
A few parameters can be taken into consideration for these gradings, such as the history, local or national importance and proximity of these locations to residential areas. Silverstone; for example would be grade 1. Rockingham and Donnington grade 2, while a smaller circuit such as castle coombe can be grade 3 (allowing for British GT and other national championships to return while keeping the sleepy village happy) and road race and rally events like Rally GB and the TT can be 3a or 4a.
Thanks for reading, any feedback on what I've said or advice on how this can be pushed under someones nose at parliament would be welcome.
Its regarding the ever tightening noise and running restrictions applied to the circuits in this country, which seem to currently be (unfairly) aimed at pleasing people whose lives are shorter than that of the circuits they are complaining about.
What I am proposing(I must say now I have no real political knowledge or clout), is a grading system not too dissimilar to that of the building grading system we have in this country to protect our rich history.
A big part of that history, which is still being lead and written by the UK. Is motorsport, to protect this industry, hobby and way of life the following grades could be applied to all of the circuits in the country and even to other sporting venues, music venues, churches and the like:
Grade 1: Huge venue with massive historical value, unlimited noise restrictions 24/7.
Grade 2: Large venue with important historical value, limited noise after 8pm.
Grade 3: medium venue, over 50 years old, limited noise apart from 12 unlimited days a year.
Grade 3a:Road circuit, only 24 days of unlimited noise, with certain traffic calming hours.
Grade 4: small venue, limited noise.
Grade 4a:Road circuit, only 12 days of closed road and noise allowed a year.
Grade 5: Venue of lesser importance, strict noise regs apart from 12 days a year.
Grade 6: Unacceptable venue, no noise permitted apart from 12 days a year.
With this, the NIMBYs can check what they're getting themselves into before they buy, and they have no influence after they do, just like buying a grade 1 house. it could even be stated on house listings and the like.
A few parameters can be taken into consideration for these gradings, such as the history, local or national importance and proximity of these locations to residential areas. Silverstone; for example would be grade 1. Rockingham and Donnington grade 2, while a smaller circuit such as castle coombe can be grade 3 (allowing for British GT and other national championships to return while keeping the sleepy village happy) and road race and rally events like Rally GB and the TT can be 3a or 4a.
Thanks for reading, any feedback on what I've said or advice on how this can be pushed under someones nose at parliament would be welcome.
how does rockingham have important historical value?
I was at Daytona in january for the 24hr, I stayed at a hotel around 35mins drive from the circuit, when I got back to the hotel on Saturday night I could still hear the cars racing. I thought this was awesome. Now in Daytona there is whole industry built up around racing, with most of the bars and restaurants having some kind of nascar theme or similar. Even all the strip clubs had signs up saying welcome race fans. So this is a whole town getting behind its biggest in flow of money.
The UK is the Motorsport capital of the world in terms of what is designed and built here, with the centre of the motorsport hub being near Silverstone. Maybe the NIMBYs are to stupid to realise what they are complaining about. I live in Daventry, out of 7 houses on my street, 6 of the main bread winners work for F1 teams. And I imagine its similar in the other streets in the area, if NIMBYs get their way and there is little racing these teams will move out of the area and take their jobs with them. I know other circuits aren't exactly the same, but I imagine the B&B owners and local hotels and pubs would be gutted if motorsport was more restricted.
We don't need any rule changes to grade the tracks, we need a complete culture change for the local people, they need to learn how much their local economy benefits from motorsport. Now imagine moving to Daytona and complaining about the noise, seems ridiculous. but people at Silverstone have complained enough to get the BRITCAR 24hr cancelled.
I was at Daytona in january for the 24hr, I stayed at a hotel around 35mins drive from the circuit, when I got back to the hotel on Saturday night I could still hear the cars racing. I thought this was awesome. Now in Daytona there is whole industry built up around racing, with most of the bars and restaurants having some kind of nascar theme or similar. Even all the strip clubs had signs up saying welcome race fans. So this is a whole town getting behind its biggest in flow of money.
The UK is the Motorsport capital of the world in terms of what is designed and built here, with the centre of the motorsport hub being near Silverstone. Maybe the NIMBYs are to stupid to realise what they are complaining about. I live in Daventry, out of 7 houses on my street, 6 of the main bread winners work for F1 teams. And I imagine its similar in the other streets in the area, if NIMBYs get their way and there is little racing these teams will move out of the area and take their jobs with them. I know other circuits aren't exactly the same, but I imagine the B&B owners and local hotels and pubs would be gutted if motorsport was more restricted.
We don't need any rule changes to grade the tracks, we need a complete culture change for the local people, they need to learn how much their local economy benefits from motorsport. Now imagine moving to Daytona and complaining about the noise, seems ridiculous. but people at Silverstone have complained enough to get the BRITCAR 24hr cancelled.
Lazy to demonise people as nimbies- we all fall into the category , given the right circumstances. If we don't like something the modern tendency is to try to get it stopped rather than put up with it . We don't like people who do that re race circuits but God how we bloody squeal if there's a traveller site, a new road or even a new house over the road.
Agreed. We need to educate people better about the benefits of the industry, but most importantly we need to be responsible neighbours. We are perceived to be a minority sport for relatively wealthy people, and not very "green". We need to make sure that we limit the nuisance to others and not attract adverse attention.
Its no good complaining about NIMBYs we need to make sure that we don't give them a reason to complain. I'd rather have quieter racing than no racing.
Its no good complaining about NIMBYs we need to make sure that we don't give them a reason to complain. I'd rather have quieter racing than no racing.
I always wonder about the phrase "brings £x into the local economy", I regularly visit Silverstone (3 or 4 non-F1 events a year) and I think the nearest I've come to spending money locally was buying a sandwich from the Tesco in Towcester. Although I am sure my patronage of the Rob-Dog burger caravans also benefits the students/immigrants they ship in from Northampton/Milton Keynes/wherever to work for minimum wage.
Truckosaurus said:
I always wonder about the phrase "brings £x into the local economy", I regularly visit Silverstone (3 or 4 non-F1 events a year) and I think the nearest I've come to spending money locally was buying a sandwich from the Tesco in Towcester. Although I am sure my patronage of the Rob-Dog burger caravans also benefits the students/immigrants they ship in from Northampton/Milton Keynes/wherever to work for minimum wage.
You'll find that for even the most average of clubbie race meetings you have to book well in advance to stand a chance of getting a room in premier inn or travel lodge near a circuit. Its not the spectators that bring in money. In racing other than F1, its the teams, drivers, family of teams. I have 3 hotels rooms booked already for every brands, donny, and oulton race this year. at every race weekend I will be in a pub for a meal the night before. Multiply this by the hundreds of teams drivers and families and you have a significant amount of spending. Also look at the amount of industry built up around race circuits. take Snetterton for example, do you think that a significant number of GP2 teams would be based near there if the track wasn't ideal for exclusive and semi exclusive testing.
coppice said:
-snip- God how we bloody squeal if there's a traveller site, a new road or even a new house over the road.
That's the point though - all of your examples are NEW things that come up AFTER you have started living there. Most race tracks are OLD and were there BEFORE you started living near by. Not the same situation at all.
But in many cases when circuits were opened they only operated for 3 days a week and then not every week (certainly not in winter). They are now 7 day a week, 12 months of the year operations and there is therefore no respite from the noise of engines and tyres.
You and I may like that (I live one mile from Donington) but many non petrol heads find the constant "drone" irritating!
You and I may like that (I live one mile from Donington) but many non petrol heads find the constant "drone" irritating!
That's the point; Mallory was used in breach of its planning regime and as a local to Croft the spike in usage was very noticeable after track days became the norm. The litigation about Croft was motivated by something much more..err..personal but I can see why people found the near daily scream of bikes on track bloody irritating . Where I live I am overflown by somebody doing aerobatics in a stunt plane for bloody hours and some days I just wish he'd f
k off somewhere else....
k off somewhere else.... micron750 said:
Castle Combe has a housing est right next to the circuit it wasn't them complaining but a few in Yatton Keynal in particular one person who used his influence to get the F3/Gt meeting stopped!
My understanding of what happened in this case, as relayed to me by someone who was a race clerk at Combe many years ago:Castle Combe did not have the appropriate planning consent for the F3 meeting, as its planning permission was based on the four MSA noise limits (so certain number of schedule A days, certain number of schedule C etc). F3 and British GT ran to a higher noise limit than any of the standard limits in the book (so higher than for a normal race meeting), so by putting on that race using permission granted for a standard MSA racing noise limit they were acting outside what their planning allowed them.
When this was discovered, it was only going to end one way.
coppice said:
Lazy to demonise people as nimbies- we all fall into the category , given the right circumstances. If we don't like something the modern tendency is to try to get it stopped rather than put up with it . We don't like people who do that re race circuits but God how we bloody squeal if there's a traveller site, a new road or even a new house over the road.
the big thing with the circuit NIMBYs is that by and large they moved in AFTER the circuit was developed ... certainly in the case of Croft and Mallory where the circuits had been in operation for many many years ... The grading system proposed by the OP is all well and good exactly where do the likes of Rockingham and Bruntingthorpe fit in ? or does the existence of an airfield or similar give soem kind of grandafather rights ( given the numbe of UK circuits built around airfields), what aobut the use of a venue for a different thing to it;s primary use - the defining example of this would of course be Donington as a Concert venue - although the length of time it has been used as such a venue - when did Monsters of Rock start ?
mph1977 said:
what aobut the use of a venue for a different thing to it;s primary use - the defining example of this would of course be Donington as a Concert venue - although the length of time it has been used as such a venue - when did Monsters of Rock start ?
It's now "Download" but I went to the "Monster of Rock" when I was 18, and that wasn't the first staging of it and I'm 51 now!andy97 said:
mph1977 said:
what aobut the use of a venue for a different thing to it;s primary use - the defining example of this would of course be Donington as a Concert venue - although the length of time it has been used as such a venue - when did Monsters of Rock start ?
It's now "Download" but I went to the "Monster of Rock" when I was 18, and that wasn't the first staging of it and I'm 51 now!but the point being that Donington has been a Concenrt venue for 30 + years so may well survive the (deeply flawed) classification system suggested by the OP - but the kind of system that politicians might well implement if there was enough pressure.
The Download festival has changed significantly over time. MoR was a 1 day event on the infield, Download is now over 5 days and people start arriving to camp the week before.
Just like I want to enjoy my sport without being moaned at I have no problem with Download once a year, even though it is noisy. What I do object to is the fact that after the concerts end at 2300 there are often DJ sets that go on within the camp sites until 0400. I would not complain about music until 2300 but I have complained about music until 0400.
The point is that there is an element of reasonableness to all activities; once that boundary is crossed and you start upsetting people then your activities are under threat. Thresholds of reasonableness are different for different people but in our motorsport world I would argue that we need to work harder to be reasonable and that means racing quieter cars, complying with requirements not to start race engines before 0800 or after 1800 and not abusing the planning conditions (Mallory).
Just like I want to enjoy my sport without being moaned at I have no problem with Download once a year, even though it is noisy. What I do object to is the fact that after the concerts end at 2300 there are often DJ sets that go on within the camp sites until 0400. I would not complain about music until 2300 but I have complained about music until 0400.
The point is that there is an element of reasonableness to all activities; once that boundary is crossed and you start upsetting people then your activities are under threat. Thresholds of reasonableness are different for different people but in our motorsport world I would argue that we need to work harder to be reasonable and that means racing quieter cars, complying with requirements not to start race engines before 0800 or after 1800 and not abusing the planning conditions (Mallory).
mph1977 said:
the big thing with the circuit NIMBYs is that by and large they moved in AFTER the circuit was developed ... certainly in the case of Croft and Mallory where the circuits had been in operation for many many years ...
The grading system proposed by the OP is all well and good exactly where do the likes of Rockingham and Bruntingthorpe fit in ? or does the existence of an airfield or similar give soem kind of grandafather rights ( given the numbe of UK circuits built around airfields), what aobut the use of a venue for a different thing to it;s primary use - the defining example of this would of course be Donington as a Concert venue - although the length of time it has been used as such a venue - when did Monsters of Rock start ?
Not so- Croft ended its life as a race circuit in 1981-ish and apart from low key rallycross nothing happened for 15 years. It wasn't racing that was the real problem but the huge increase in track days - which didn't happen at Croft until the 90s.As for Mallory- if its management hadn't decided to ignore planning restrictions it would not have encountered the hostility which met increased usage. All circuits must be good neighbours and if we adopt this daft us and them attitude it really doesn't help. The grading system proposed by the OP is all well and good exactly where do the likes of Rockingham and Bruntingthorpe fit in ? or does the existence of an airfield or similar give soem kind of grandafather rights ( given the numbe of UK circuits built around airfields), what aobut the use of a venue for a different thing to it;s primary use - the defining example of this would of course be Donington as a Concert venue - although the length of time it has been used as such a venue - when did Monsters of Rock start ?
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