BEC vs CEC reliability
Discussion
I've no doubt this is opening a major can of worms here but I've been looking at CECs (zetec westfield) and now been offered a BEC one (R1 MNR vortx) which I'm considering.
The car will mainy be for trackdays and whilst I think the BEC option might be more fun, the most important thing for me is that you can hoon around the track all day without mechanical issues. To that end, are BECs generally considered to be a bit more fragile? The way I see it, you are using an engine designed to push 250kgs to push 500kgs whereas in a CEC the opposite is true. I know a lot of reliability will be down to the quality of the build and components etc. but in general for care-free all day track work (MX5 style!) would I be better with a CEC?
The car will mainy be for trackdays and whilst I think the BEC option might be more fun, the most important thing for me is that you can hoon around the track all day without mechanical issues. To that end, are BECs generally considered to be a bit more fragile? The way I see it, you are using an engine designed to push 250kgs to push 500kgs whereas in a CEC the opposite is true. I know a lot of reliability will be down to the quality of the build and components etc. but in general for care-free all day track work (MX5 style!) would I be better with a CEC?
I'd hope that the CEC engine and gearbox would be a lot more robust, but then as with a BEC a lot depends on how tired the parts were when they were put in the kit.
Most of the problems I've had with my Megablade have been electrical things that could happen regardless of the engine, though I'm on my third rectifier now which can be a weak spot for BEC electrics. I wouldn't call it reliable - it hasn't stranded me anywhere yet, but there is always something that needs fixing on it!
In the back of my mind I guess it is inevitable that the engine, or perhaps more likely the gearbox might go pop one day, so I'll have to suck up the £1k cost for a recon replacement.
Most of the problems I've had with my Megablade have been electrical things that could happen regardless of the engine, though I'm on my third rectifier now which can be a weak spot for BEC electrics. I wouldn't call it reliable - it hasn't stranded me anywhere yet, but there is always something that needs fixing on it!
In the back of my mind I guess it is inevitable that the engine, or perhaps more likely the gearbox might go pop one day, so I'll have to suck up the £1k cost for a recon replacement.
I guess the gearbox is a real weakness trying to shift all that extra weight. My experience of sportsbikes is that they wear out in about a third the mileage that cars do, i.e. I'd consider a car with 120,000 miles on it pretty tired and probably avoid a bike with 40,000 miles (I have one of each!). I guess that would be more pronounced in a BEC?
With all kit cars it depends on how well its built. I've had 2 BECs now and both took a fair bit of pain and time invested to make them reliable - my current car (hayabusa engined Westfield) is very reliable but didn't start that way, even though it was bought as apparently "one of the best" and "built by an engineer" etc - counts for nothing, IMO you want a car that you can confirm in some way that its been running reliably recently (is it know to you/local clubs etc). Don't be afraid of cars that have been used on track - they are very often far better screwed together than those that get taken for a gentle Sunday run.
GreigM said:
With all kit cars it depends on how well its built. I've had 2 BECs now and both took a fair bit of pain and time invested to make them reliable - my current car (hayabusa engined Westfield) is very reliable but didn't start that way, even though it was bought as apparently "one of the best" and "built by an engineer" etc - counts for nothing, IMO you want a car that you can confirm in some way that its been running reliably recently (is it know to you/local clubs etc). Don't be afraid of cars that have been used on track - they are very often far better screwed together than those that get taken for a gentle Sunday run.
This. A new engine and a rebuild on that engine later plus lots of work on cooling, electric and airflow as well as upgrades to ancillaries and my MK Indy R R1 is finally robust and running tip top. I missed last seasons track days entirely rebuilding and fettling. If it goes pop at all this year watch out for a rabid owner going basil fawlty on his car at a track near you soon!
Ah you see now this is what fills me with fear, stories like that. I do a lot of tinkering with cars and bikes and everyone thinks I enjoy it but actually I don't at all...I like driving! The tinkering is just a necessity and frankly if I was rich enough to have all the work done by mechanics I probably would.
The thing I like about MX5s is that you can take a boggo standard one, change the fluid and pads and thrash it round a track all day with no issues at all. I'd really hope to be able to do the same with a kitcar and I kind of lost that by turbocharging the MX5 as it became that much more fragile.
I don't mind fettling and modifying over winter, what I don't want is to spend half a trackday working on the car rather than driving it which is what happened on my last one at Cadwell.
The thing I like about MX5s is that you can take a boggo standard one, change the fluid and pads and thrash it round a track all day with no issues at all. I'd really hope to be able to do the same with a kitcar and I kind of lost that by turbocharging the MX5 as it became that much more fragile.
I don't mind fettling and modifying over winter, what I don't want is to spend half a trackday working on the car rather than driving it which is what happened on my last one at Cadwell.
The way I look at this is for reliability it helps if the engine isn't under more stress than the large and very knowledgeable company who made it designed it to take.
So a bike engine that was designed for half the weight and is already highly tuned is likely to be more fragile.
However, a modified/tuned/supercharged car engine is an unknown quantity as far as reliability is concerned. There are a lot of good tuners out there, but none of them have the resources to do long term road testing.
For the best chance of reliabilty, I would choose a standard modern car engine, most of which can be expected to make it past 100,000 miles without major overhaul. In a Seven style kit any modern 2 litre engine will give great performance in any case.
So a bike engine that was designed for half the weight and is already highly tuned is likely to be more fragile.
However, a modified/tuned/supercharged car engine is an unknown quantity as far as reliability is concerned. There are a lot of good tuners out there, but none of them have the resources to do long term road testing.
For the best chance of reliabilty, I would choose a standard modern car engine, most of which can be expected to make it past 100,000 miles without major overhaul. In a Seven style kit any modern 2 litre engine will give great performance in any case.
I'm kind of veering that way myself...2 litre zetec that's basically standard should do the job. My MX5 only has around 170bhp/tonne which is fast enough (that you have to brake for corners!) and any kitcar over 100bhp would beat that.
The only complicating factor is that I have been offered a good deal on an R1 engined car that would be hard to beat value wise. Decisions decisions...
The only complicating factor is that I have been offered a good deal on an R1 engined car that would be hard to beat value wise. Decisions decisions...
BEC's are far more visceral and fun on a track day for me, I don't think they are as fragile as you think, as long as you buy on condition. One that has been tracked before with reliability would be a good start. Sumo baffles seem a good idea as the engine will be more upright under lateral g in a car so that can have a negative effect on reliability.
T0MMY said:
I do like the idea of a stratospheric rev limit and sequential box in a car, as you say, more visceral. Tricky decision this, maybe next trackday I'm on I'll try to blag a passenger ride or two.
I've had my R1 powered Fury on the road since 2008. I've done loads of track days, several week long, 3000mile Euro' tours (Alps, Pyrenees, Med) and well over 20k miles. Never treated it with kid gloves and not had any reliability issues with the standard 06 engine.Last year I did swap the engine for an ex-race tuned motor and promptly blew it up... but that was my install that was at fault. It's back in again now and fine (apart from a blown coolant hose on Friday, but that could happen to any engine).
Certainly blag a ride in a BEC, but be aware without you in it'll be even quicker. They're not just about revs and acceleration; The light weight makes them stop and turn quicker than a CEC. Properly installed with the right mods for the engine and it should be reliable... don't listen to the nay-sayers!
I track dayed a Fury9R heavily for two years or so.
I changed the oil and filter very other track day. but apart from that, it needed nowt.
I spent the day bouncing it off the rev limiter on many oaccasions.
I think most BECs have issues with reliabilty due to unsympathetic car drivers who try to use to much engine braking and over rev an already high revving unit.
I changed the oil and filter very other track day. but apart from that, it needed nowt.
I spent the day bouncing it off the rev limiter on many oaccasions.
I think most BECs have issues with reliabilty due to unsympathetic car drivers who try to use to much engine braking and over rev an already high revving unit.
Seven years in my Fury R1 (2003 engine) and it gets driven hard! Been very reliable. I had a few cogs in the gear box replaced last year but, this was mainly down to my home made rod linked gear shift. Also managed to hole the sump last summer too, again my fault.
Other than that it has been very reliable and I just can't imagine a car-engined sports car being quite as much fun. It's not just the acceleration and noise but, the minimal mass (450Kg) too. I make a point of never leaving the car in a state where I can't drive it, so no endless tinkering! It's a 3rd car for me so is purely driven for fun and excitement and it hasn't failed to deliver :-)
I think a large part of it is how well the bike engine installation was designed and implemented. I used an R1 radiator and plumbed it up exactly as on the bike. This means the combined oil and water cooling system works exactly as Yamaha intended.
Bike engines seem to handle the extra weight of the car fine, especially as it has lower gearing for acceleration and not the same top speed (11,500rpm in 6th = 130mph). The key thing with a bike engine in a car seems to be to make sure there is no oil surge issues (R1 uses a sump baffle + over fill) and to change the (quality) oil regularly. The oil in my R1 engine has never seen more than 3000 miles. I use the same stuff that Andy Bates uses in his race cars at AB Performance.
Other than that it has been very reliable and I just can't imagine a car-engined sports car being quite as much fun. It's not just the acceleration and noise but, the minimal mass (450Kg) too. I make a point of never leaving the car in a state where I can't drive it, so no endless tinkering! It's a 3rd car for me so is purely driven for fun and excitement and it hasn't failed to deliver :-)
I think a large part of it is how well the bike engine installation was designed and implemented. I used an R1 radiator and plumbed it up exactly as on the bike. This means the combined oil and water cooling system works exactly as Yamaha intended.
Bike engines seem to handle the extra weight of the car fine, especially as it has lower gearing for acceleration and not the same top speed (11,500rpm in 6th = 130mph). The key thing with a bike engine in a car seems to be to make sure there is no oil surge issues (R1 uses a sump baffle + over fill) and to change the (quality) oil regularly. The oil in my R1 engine has never seen more than 3000 miles. I use the same stuff that Andy Bates uses in his race cars at AB Performance.
+1 to everything Rob said. Take care of it, and a BEC is fine. That means paying close attention to oil quality and level, and listening attentively, but not actually much more if the base build is solid.
If you just want to thrash and forget - don't go BEC, it really will not suit you. But if you can and want to pay basic regular attention, there's little to be afraid of.
As for my experience with a BEC:
The fact that the Final drive is about 50% shorter in a BEC than on the bike (mine, 3.38 vs 2.5:1) makes the engine/gearbox only 'see' a load that looks only like the original bike with a rider and a pillion (<430Kg car, 510kg wet with me in it *2.5/3.4 = 370Kg all-up on the notional bike.) So the peak loading on the engine/clutch/gearbox is not actually much higher than design condition; what changes is the fact that, in a car, you can hold the damn thing near max throttle a *lot* more of the time - no risk of hoisting the front wheel out of a corner etc. It's heat, not mass, that causes problems.
What this means is that rather than worry about clutch, gears etc you actually want to pay close attention to the oil cooler, the oil quality, regular early oil and filter changes, the engine cooling system - and esp - header/exhaust quality and fuel mapping. It all really matters to keep peak temps down in the cylinder head and therefore ensure reliability overall.
I've run an R1 (2003, 5PW-engined) Fury for 4 years now; the first owner used it only for sprints for 5years; I bought it as the very best build I could find at the time and TBH it's been a joy to run with very little in the way of real problems in 15K miles since [ - you can read full details in my garage profile.] Put together so nicely I haven't had to open, let alone top-up, the rad header tank in all that time…
Oh, and at 22 Kmiles, it's still on the original clutch too! (standard Yam plates, just 2x Yam diaphragm springs. No need for the Barnett Bodge.)
If you just want to thrash and forget - don't go BEC, it really will not suit you. But if you can and want to pay basic regular attention, there's little to be afraid of.
As for my experience with a BEC:
The fact that the Final drive is about 50% shorter in a BEC than on the bike (mine, 3.38 vs 2.5:1) makes the engine/gearbox only 'see' a load that looks only like the original bike with a rider and a pillion (<430Kg car, 510kg wet with me in it *2.5/3.4 = 370Kg all-up on the notional bike.) So the peak loading on the engine/clutch/gearbox is not actually much higher than design condition; what changes is the fact that, in a car, you can hold the damn thing near max throttle a *lot* more of the time - no risk of hoisting the front wheel out of a corner etc. It's heat, not mass, that causes problems.
What this means is that rather than worry about clutch, gears etc you actually want to pay close attention to the oil cooler, the oil quality, regular early oil and filter changes, the engine cooling system - and esp - header/exhaust quality and fuel mapping. It all really matters to keep peak temps down in the cylinder head and therefore ensure reliability overall.
I've run an R1 (2003, 5PW-engined) Fury for 4 years now; the first owner used it only for sprints for 5years; I bought it as the very best build I could find at the time and TBH it's been a joy to run with very little in the way of real problems in 15K miles since [ - you can read full details in my garage profile.] Put together so nicely I haven't had to open, let alone top-up, the rad header tank in all that time…
Oh, and at 22 Kmiles, it's still on the original clutch too! (standard Yam plates, just 2x Yam diaphragm springs. No need for the Barnett Bodge.)
Edited by Huff on Sunday 30th March 22:51
That's it, there's a little thingummy fitted into the oil intake to extend it below the baffle plate. There are pics on RobC's Fury build pages IIRC.
The 5PW doesn't require the breather mod of the post-2004 R1s but running the crankcase breather to a remote catchcan certainly does not harm.
Turn7 - thanks for that snippet; yes, I bought the car from David C.
The 5PW doesn't require the breather mod of the post-2004 R1s but running the crankcase breather to a remote catchcan certainly does not harm.
Turn7 - thanks for that snippet; yes, I bought the car from David C.
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