Cerbera - running costs/usability
Discussion
I'm a fairly risk averse person. So while I've always loved the idea of a TVR, in reality I've always thought I'm unlikely to actually buy one. I fear I'd spend more time worrying about stuff potentially going wrong than enjoying the car itself. However, while scouring the PH classifieds, I noticed there's a late Cerbera for sale at Racing Green. It comes with 12mth RG warranty. Does this basically mean that you should be able to run this car over the initial 12mths worry-free. I.e. only cover routine maintenance costs?
Also, I read a lot of people saying the Cerbera costs a lot more to run than other TVR models. Why is this? It seems to me (as a desk-top observer/researcher) that a lot of the running gear appears to be similar to that of other TVRs. Finally, a Cerbera looks like a GT car to me - in which case, it should be pretty comfortable/usable (i.e. left outside on driveway, used as my only wknd car). Am I missing something here? Why is it considered a special occasion only car?
Any thoughts/advice appreciated. Thanks
Also, I read a lot of people saying the Cerbera costs a lot more to run than other TVR models. Why is this? It seems to me (as a desk-top observer/researcher) that a lot of the running gear appears to be similar to that of other TVRs. Finally, a Cerbera looks like a GT car to me - in which case, it should be pretty comfortable/usable (i.e. left outside on driveway, used as my only wknd car). Am I missing something here? Why is it considered a special occasion only car?
Any thoughts/advice appreciated. Thanks
mdowning said:
I'm a fairly risk averse person.
Assuming the RG Warranty doesn't have any significant exclusions, and you survive 12 months without any financial mishaps, what will you do with the car? Sell it privately, sell it back to RG? Keeping it would not be an option for a fairly risk averse person.mdowning said:
I'm a fairly risk averse person.
You're doing the right thing by researching and asking questions then 
mdowning said:
So while I've always loved the idea of a TVR, in reality I've always thought I'm unlikely to actually buy one. I fear I'd spend more time worrying about stuff potentially going wrong than enjoying the car itself. However, while scouring the PH classifieds, I noticed there's a late Cerbera for sale at Racing Green. It comes with 12mth RG warranty. Does this basically mean that you should be able to run this car over the initial 12mths worry-free. I.e. only cover routine maintenance costs?
That should about sum it up, unless there are exclusions as stated above mdowning said:
Also, I read a lot of people saying the Cerbera costs a lot more to run than other TVR models. Why is this? It seems to me (as a desk-top observer/researcher) that a lot of the running gear appears to be similar to that of other TVRs.
Righto - the Cerbera was the first car TVR built where they seriously departed from the parts bin they usually used. Ok, there are still similarities but:The engines were all-new inhouse TVR. These are much more powerful and frankly more special/exciting than the Rover V8s in my personal view but they also cost a lot more to maintain. The Speed Six was used in all later cars. The AJP8 was only used in the Cerbera so there's a rarity factor there. Valve clearances must be adjusted every 12k, and interim servicing every 6k.
Along with the new engines, TVR also introduced their own 2-plate clutch pack, bellhousing and slave cylinder. This was to transmit the increased power from the new engines via a smaller flywheel to reduce inertia. A clutch pack costs around £900 and the slave costs just under £300. Both have a reputation for being short lived compared to normal cars (although if you were used to running Ferraris you'd think clutch life entirely normal).
The Cerbera uses many bespoke electronic boxes for lights, window motors etc etc and bespoke interior parts such as indicator stalks. Again, this is a similar story to post Cerbera cars but is more expensive to sort than pre-Cerbera cars.
The Cerbera uses unique rear brakes with combined drum/shoe hand brake. That makes rear discs for Cerberas more expensive than any other TVR, and certainly more expensive than pre-Cerbera cars.
mdowning said:
Finally, a Cerbera looks like a GT car to me - in which case, it should be pretty comfortable/usable (i.e. left outside on driveway, used as my only wknd car). Am I missing something here? Why is it considered a special occasion only car?
Any thoughts/advice appreciated. Thanks
Like most TVRs, Cerberas can leak. To be honest, mine lives outside. Sometimes the carpets get damp. I once had to use the Vax carpet cleaner to suck an inch out of the footwells after a few weeks of very heavy rain over winter.Any thoughts/advice appreciated. Thanks
In general, I find the car very comfortable once in, but it's a little awkward to get in and out. I'm not old and arthritic - it's more because the front seats end half way back the doors. You'll see what I mean when you go to see one. It's very comfortable when cruising. Being the longest wheelbase TVR built, it also rides the best and has the most stable, predictable handling. It's still very sharp compared to a normal car and will still slap you hard if it doesn't think you're paying attention. It's just a little less vicious than some other TVRs have a reputation for being (although to be fair, even that is usually the perspective of a Fiesta driver).
On the downside, a lot of heat comes through the transmission tunnel from the exhaust headers, and the cabin fans are weak. It's hot in summer and cold in winter. Visibility isn't great although it's only a physical problem if you pull up too close to traffic lights and you can't see them without leaning forwards to look up. It's also quite noisy by normal car standards, although to be honest it's entirely acceptable with the windows up in the cruise. The boot is fairly huge for this type of car and my wife and two young daughters fit fine and enjoy coming out in it. It gets regular use but I avoid commuting in it - stop-start traffic isn't fun and to be honest bumbling around cities really isn't it's forte either.
I absolutely love mine. It's not our only car though. There are some on here for whom it is their only car however, and they love them too.
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Wednesday 9th April 08:03
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Wednesday 9th April 08:07
Go for it. What's the worst that could happen?
I had a 4.5 as a daily and it was great. All the typical Cerbera issues can be solved and you can achieve a comfortable everyday cruiser. I did.
You can solve the cold winters with foam in the wings (I think most have this anyway), you can solve the water ingress by going through the check list that lives somewhere on here, you can solve the hot summers by sorting out the air con and you can solve the overheating in traffic by fitting new rad, pipes, hoses and using good quality coolant. The cooling chip mod also helps.
My daily lived outside and was as good if not better than most family saloons. It would queue on the motor way for hours issue free and then tear up the A roads.
Just do it.
I had a 4.5 as a daily and it was great. All the typical Cerbera issues can be solved and you can achieve a comfortable everyday cruiser. I did.
You can solve the cold winters with foam in the wings (I think most have this anyway), you can solve the water ingress by going through the check list that lives somewhere on here, you can solve the hot summers by sorting out the air con and you can solve the overheating in traffic by fitting new rad, pipes, hoses and using good quality coolant. The cooling chip mod also helps.
My daily lived outside and was as good if not better than most family saloons. It would queue on the motor way for hours issue free and then tear up the A roads.
Just do it.
I think Jamie's reply covers all the important bits, the bespoke parts for the Cerbera will make it more expensive to fix when things wear out or go wrong in comparison with a Chimp or Griff. Other running cost such as fuel are also steep, mine averages around 15mpg so using as a GT car requires regular trips for super unleaded.
Look for a car that has had all the work done if you want peace of mind with a warranty, You will want to see expensive jobs such as engine rebuild on the sp6, clutch and raceproved slave, new shocks and springs, replacement radiator and brakes having been carried out, get a good independent to check over chassis for corrosion and rot.
Then just drive it and try not to scare yourself too much!
Look for a car that has had all the work done if you want peace of mind with a warranty, You will want to see expensive jobs such as engine rebuild on the sp6, clutch and raceproved slave, new shocks and springs, replacement radiator and brakes having been carried out, get a good independent to check over chassis for corrosion and rot.
Then just drive it and try not to scare yourself too much!
If you are seriously risk averse buy a Yaris. Seriously, Cerberas, are wonderful but like any super car they do occasionally bite you in the arse so if you find that totally unacceptable/out of the question don't buy one. I see no point in telling a prospective buyer that they are totally reliable and as good as any day to day eurobox. I love mine most of the time but despite frequent and regardless of cost maintenance it still savages my wallet from time to time.
Pretty well spot on but.
It's been mapped to bring the toque in at 2K revs so is easy to drive in traffic, although the clutch is heavy. The good thing about bumbling around cities is the noise echos, but I know what Jamie means
jamieduff1981 said:
On the downside, a lot of heat comes through the transmission tunnel from the exhaust headers, and the cabin fans are weak. It's hot in summer and cold in winter.
I've taken the Cats out, mine is fine in the summer and doesn't get hot down the tunnel at all.jamieduff1981 said:
Visibility isn't great although it's only a physical problem if you pull up too close to traffic lights and you can't see them without leaning forwards to look up.
Depends - If you're a short arse and sit with the seat right forward it's not really an issue jamieduff1981 said:
It's also quite noisy by normal car standards, although to be honest it's entirely acceptable with the windows up in the cruise. The boot is fairly huge for this type of car and my wife and two young daughters fit fine and enjoy coming out in it. It gets regular use but I avoid commuting in it - stop-start traffic isn't fun and to be honest bumbling around cities really isn't it's forte either.
Mine's not too bad with the quiet exhaust on, although nowhere near modern standards.It's been mapped to bring the toque in at 2K revs so is easy to drive in traffic, although the clutch is heavy. The good thing about bumbling around cities is the noise echos, but I know what Jamie means
jamieduff1981 said:
I absolutely love mine. It's not our only car though. There are some on here for whom it is their only car however, and they love them too.
Exactly that. Have another ratty car to run around inI have no cats but still get cosy carpets
I didn't mean to make the car sound bad. I really do love mine. I guess I was just trying to offer some possible answers to the OP's concerns.
It's also only really an issue compared to a modern mass produced car. In absolute terms I'd just tell someone to man-the-f***-up and stop whinging
I didn't mean to make the car sound bad. I really do love mine. I guess I was just trying to offer some possible answers to the OP's concerns.
It's also only really an issue compared to a modern mass produced car. In absolute terms I'd just tell someone to man-the-f***-up and stop whinging
Very interesting. Thanks for the responses. Touch wood, I'm moving houses soon and the new place will be a bit more car friendly than where I am at the moment (but no garage). So a TVR is a genuine possibility.
I guess I really need to pop down to racing green, or somewhere similar, and take a look first hand. I did actually visit racing green 2-3 years ago and took a look a few things in the showroom (t350, tuscan, etc). I can't remember an awful lot. Apart from thinking the cars all looked super cool, the only other thing I recall is thinking the doors of these cars were incredibly light compared to the German manufacturers I was used to... and the build quality felt a bit light/flimsy (a little kit-car like). But this was based on 10 minutes of jumping from car to car and never going out for a drive, which I suspect is the real event.
I guess I really need to pop down to racing green, or somewhere similar, and take a look first hand. I did actually visit racing green 2-3 years ago and took a look a few things in the showroom (t350, tuscan, etc). I can't remember an awful lot. Apart from thinking the cars all looked super cool, the only other thing I recall is thinking the doors of these cars were incredibly light compared to the German manufacturers I was used to... and the build quality felt a bit light/flimsy (a little kit-car like). But this was based on 10 minutes of jumping from car to car and never going out for a drive, which I suspect is the real event.
Tarmacshredder said:
You will want to see expensive jobs such as engine rebuild on the sp6, clutch and raceproved slave, new shocks and springs, replacement radiator and brakes having been carried out, get a good independent to check over chassis for corrosion and rot.
... quite a long list compared to what you need to check with your average eurobox mdowning said:
Very interesting. Thanks for the responses. Touch wood, I'm moving houses soon and the new place will be a bit more car friendly than where I am at the moment (but no garage). So a TVR is a genuine possibility.
I guess I really need to pop down to racing green, or somewhere similar, and take a look first hand. I did actually visit racing green 2-3 years ago and took a look a few things in the showroom (t350, tuscan, etc). I can't remember an awful lot. Apart from thinking the cars all looked super cool, the only other thing I recall is thinking the doors of these cars were incredibly light compared to the German manufacturers I was used to... and the build quality felt a bit light/flimsy (a little kit-car like). But this was based on 10 minutes of jumping from car to car and never going out for a drive, which I suspect is the real event.
The cars are very light. Can I ask if you've ever had a poke around sportier Ferraris of a similar vintage? They're, erm, lightly built too. Nowadays they're more about the door clunk, but back in the 90s they were more like race cars with headlights and numberplates. The paint was so thin you could see carbon weave through it. You kinda need to appreciate the car for what it is though, rather than a sleek and really fast version of an Audi A5 because they're absolutely nothing like that.I guess I really need to pop down to racing green, or somewhere similar, and take a look first hand. I did actually visit racing green 2-3 years ago and took a look a few things in the showroom (t350, tuscan, etc). I can't remember an awful lot. Apart from thinking the cars all looked super cool, the only other thing I recall is thinking the doors of these cars were incredibly light compared to the German manufacturers I was used to... and the build quality felt a bit light/flimsy (a little kit-car like). But this was based on 10 minutes of jumping from car to car and never going out for a drive, which I suspect is the real event.
They're powerful, light and very raw. TVRs had some of the most plush interiors for the class of car at the time, although the cars are still lightly built. You are getting north of 350bhp/tonne with a Cerbera though, which you'll struggle to match within similar budgets. I've no idea what your car history is or what you've been in before, but if you think something like a modern XKR is fast then WOT in 1st gear in a Cerbera is going to extract a "F*** me!" from you first time you experience it. There aren't that many days per year up in Scotland where the road is warm enough to deploy WOT in first gear - which may give you a flavour for the car's power.
If you can get to the place where you see lightness as the whole reason the car feels the way it does to drive, then you'll love it. If you're looking for a German exec saloon feel but faster, you're going to need an extra £100k.
Racing Green are a good bunch, but there are others such as Fernhursts and James Agger as well as Str8Six whom you should consider too.
ukkid35 said:
mdowning said:
... quite a long list compared to what you need to check with your average eurobox
Most mass produced cars will need those items replaced/rebuilt by 100k (though hopefully not the engine), the difference with a Cerb is that those items may only last 30k.Also worth noting is that most mass produced cars will clock up 100k of mostly cruising at a steady speed. Cerberas by and large are used mostly as play-things and probably get thrashed more often than not. That's why we have them, afterall. A high performance sports car like this covering 30k of weekend blasts will get a fairly hard life compared to most mass produced cars, mile for mile.
The only thing I can add to the excellent posts by my fellow nutters;
Buy it, run it for 11
months sell it with a months warranty.
If in this time it's got under you skin and you accept what if? and lifes too short...... Keep it.
Not much to loose (check the warranty for the common problems, engine, clutch, gearbox, diff, cooling system, electrics, bursting into flames, bits falling off etc)
Right, I'm back off into the garage to enjoy my cerb....
HTH
Craig
All good advice above. The annual running figure that usually causes a good argument is £3k per annum. If you like to wield a spanner then you can hugely reduce this and some will tell you they have spent nothing each year other than fuel/insurance + some consumables etc.
There is one unfortunate chap that tried the major service himself, made a schoolboy error and destroyed his engine on start-up which cost north of £5K to put right I think.
Even though mine has been ultra reliable and I take it to APM for the annual service and MOT (who is excellent and cheaper than some places) you are still looking at £1k for the major service, a few hundred for the interim if you use a garage. Add to that consumables that can be pricey, possibly bent wheels (if you have Spiders and the road near you have potholes ;o) it can add up quickly.
I would just say that ensure you are able to fund something big if it happens, if you are on a shoestring then IMHO its a waste of time. When you start to view Cerbs you will probably see the difference between a tired car that has been scrimped on and one that's been very well cared for. If someone hasn't bothered to fix a small niggle then chances are they have ignored an expensive one, common sense.
Last year my exhaust manifolds were cracked (common problem) you can remove them yourself and get them welded which is a free to very cheap job, they may last many years or in my case less than 3 years. I ended up with a full ACT Stainless system which made a big dent in the wallet including the fitting but I wanted a longer term fix and wasn't happy to do it myself and don't really have the spare time.
I'm sure someone will disagree with me but its a free world.
There is one unfortunate chap that tried the major service himself, made a schoolboy error and destroyed his engine on start-up which cost north of £5K to put right I think.
Even though mine has been ultra reliable and I take it to APM for the annual service and MOT (who is excellent and cheaper than some places) you are still looking at £1k for the major service, a few hundred for the interim if you use a garage. Add to that consumables that can be pricey, possibly bent wheels (if you have Spiders and the road near you have potholes ;o) it can add up quickly.
I would just say that ensure you are able to fund something big if it happens, if you are on a shoestring then IMHO its a waste of time. When you start to view Cerbs you will probably see the difference between a tired car that has been scrimped on and one that's been very well cared for. If someone hasn't bothered to fix a small niggle then chances are they have ignored an expensive one, common sense.
Last year my exhaust manifolds were cracked (common problem) you can remove them yourself and get them welded which is a free to very cheap job, they may last many years or in my case less than 3 years. I ended up with a full ACT Stainless system which made a big dent in the wallet including the fitting but I wanted a longer term fix and wasn't happy to do it myself and don't really have the spare time.
I'm sure someone will disagree with me but its a free world.
Sorry to be the Devil's Advocate
BUT
Although I know of several owners that have kept their Cerbs out through all weathers successfully I would not buy one if that was the only home environment I could offer it.
I find my '01 4.5 beautifully comfy for a 2000 km weekend (but I am a 5'7" shrimp)
The only problem I have found as a daily driver (and sole car) is the huge turning circle(which can be frustrating in public car parks).
She has been phenomenally reliable - certainly the most reliable British sports car that I've ever owned.
Buying her was the most sensible motoring decision I ever made in 40 years of driving.
Costs can be reduced considerably if you know one end of a spanner from the other
BUT
and I say this looking at your car history and your report of your visit to a TVR dealer - I think yoyu might not fit the lifestyle owning a Cerb demands.
I am probably completely wrong - just wanted to prepare your knuckles, that's all.
Go and find your nearest TVR Club on the TVRCC Website, go to a meet, have a drive in a few (the owners will be dead keen to impress you) and then make a decision based on at least a little experience.
Look forward to meeting you one day in your fire-breathing dragon
p.s. Mine is only lightly tuned and has 311bhp/tonne. Check the figures on your previously owned vehicles to get some idea of what you'll be letting yourself in for.
Owning one of these will put you in a different automobile Universe
BUT
Although I know of several owners that have kept their Cerbs out through all weathers successfully I would not buy one if that was the only home environment I could offer it.
I find my '01 4.5 beautifully comfy for a 2000 km weekend (but I am a 5'7" shrimp)
The only problem I have found as a daily driver (and sole car) is the huge turning circle(which can be frustrating in public car parks).
She has been phenomenally reliable - certainly the most reliable British sports car that I've ever owned.
Buying her was the most sensible motoring decision I ever made in 40 years of driving.
Costs can be reduced considerably if you know one end of a spanner from the other
BUT
and I say this looking at your car history and your report of your visit to a TVR dealer - I think yoyu might not fit the lifestyle owning a Cerb demands.
I am probably completely wrong - just wanted to prepare your knuckles, that's all.
Go and find your nearest TVR Club on the TVRCC Website, go to a meet, have a drive in a few (the owners will be dead keen to impress you) and then make a decision based on at least a little experience.
Look forward to meeting you one day in your fire-breathing dragon
p.s. Mine is only lightly tuned and has 311bhp/tonne. Check the figures on your previously owned vehicles to get some idea of what you'll be letting yourself in for.
Owning one of these will put you in a different automobile Universe
Edited by Mr Cerbera on Thursday 10th April 22:18
Not wanting to shift this thread but running costs well! I'm soon to 6k service my speed 6 Cerb and have been given some advisories.
6k service
diff bushes soft
rear CV gaiters
Rack Pinion seal slight weep
Upgrading to stainless pipes
Had one £1,860 quote but thats service and labour I still have to buy the waterpipes, does that seem high? Also while I'm there I will be having a chassis wax oil and 2 wheels could do with a refurb! Im not happy about the labour breakdown Ive been given so we'll see, this may push back my 4.3 engine rebuild oh and at the same time that is the cost difference in the 4.5SS rebuild over the 4.3
Thinks I'll be shopping around lads
6k service
diff bushes soft
rear CV gaiters
Rack Pinion seal slight weep
Upgrading to stainless pipes
Had one £1,860 quote but thats service and labour I still have to buy the waterpipes, does that seem high? Also while I'm there I will be having a chassis wax oil and 2 wheels could do with a refurb! Im not happy about the labour breakdown Ive been given so we'll see, this may push back my 4.3 engine rebuild oh and at the same time that is the cost difference in the 4.5SS rebuild over the 4.3
Thinks I'll be shopping around lads
Your right mate, I had the car lifted and a free check given... the advisories we not by the guys that quoted the work.
To be fair I have had a steering fluid weep for some time and when they had the car up (while fitting my awesome brake upgrade) they are the first people who have given me a definitive problem as to where it was coming from.
The water pipes are rusty and I can see that. The other stuff would be harder to tell but the diagnosis was shown to me when the car was up so I would expect whoever does the work to show me what they've changed.
On top of a service Ive been quoted about 10hrs at £70per hour oh and the best bit is they haven't even included the stainless pipes fitting in the quote! They included VAT on the service cost but didnt specify on their labour so I did add it in my calculations otherwise it would be £1,210?
To be fair I have had a steering fluid weep for some time and when they had the car up (while fitting my awesome brake upgrade) they are the first people who have given me a definitive problem as to where it was coming from.
The water pipes are rusty and I can see that. The other stuff would be harder to tell but the diagnosis was shown to me when the car was up so I would expect whoever does the work to show me what they've changed.
On top of a service Ive been quoted about 10hrs at £70per hour oh and the best bit is they haven't even included the stainless pipes fitting in the quote! They included VAT on the service cost but didnt specify on their labour so I did add it in my calculations otherwise it would be £1,210?
So is the labour rate £84 an hour including vat.
Have you considered doing the coolant pipes yourself. There's not really much to it.
At 10 hours I'm guessing there's fat added to that in case they have problems with any of it. Presumably that includes all of the necessary parts.
Have you considered doing the coolant pipes yourself. There's not really much to it.
At 10 hours I'm guessing there's fat added to that in case they have problems with any of it. Presumably that includes all of the necessary parts.
Edited by m4tti on Tuesday 14th October 20:40
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