The wedge on track

[GOG440]

Any of you guys driven your wedge on track?
I did another "test" day at Blyton yesterday and my wedge was ridiculously difficult to drive, the weather conditions varied between ok and shocking but especially in drying conditions it was extremely unpredictable, literally from went from feeling fine, gripping well going where I wanted it to, to sudden massive oversteer.
Car feels absolutely fine on the road or in the dry, same tyres as last time I took it on track, same pressures etc

[GOG440]

As far as I can tell the alignment is ok (tyres wearing evenly)tyres pressures are 24 on the rear it was polybushed at the rear just before I got it, I am at a loss as to why it was so unpredictable and especially as to why when it went it went so quickly.
I span 4 times, twice on lefts, twice on rights so if there is an issue somewhere it affects me turning both ways!
rear tyres are newish looking Uniroyals
Any ideas? or is this normal for a wedge in greasy conditions.

[adam quantrill]

"Sudden massive oversteer" is called "whoooo hooo".... ;^)

[mrzigazaga]

GOG440 said:

Is this normal for a wedge in greasy conditions.

Hi Mate..Sorry that i can't offer any track info but i would imagine that would be the case..Especially on road tyres...Ziga

[gmw9666]

you wearing these?

[TA14]

GOG440 said:

or is this normal for a wedge in greasy conditions.

fairly

gmw9666 said:

you wearing these?

Good point. Plus how stiff is your suspension? People typically double or triple the spring stiffness these days which doesn't help in damp conditions.

Having said all that, the standard 205/60/15 tyres (or 205/55/15) do give a reasonable amount of warning before it lets go in the dry, you just need to be very sensitive in the wet.

[Toltec]

I used a 350i and then 400SE for trackdays quite a few times, the only thing that made the handling a bit wild was when there was a problem with the arb. The tongue on the mount has a habit of pulling out of the slot in the chassis, this can be fixed by getting some two bolt clamps and drilling a lower mounting hole. I also had a rose joint snap in a Steve Heath drop link which had the same effect. I should add that the drop link may have been fitted at the wrong angle, once re-fitted with a new joint the problem never re-occurred.

If anything I found the wedge quite predictable on a track and it could be driven on or over the limits of the tyres without drama. Even with a disconnected arb it was OK, you just tended to get much more oversteer.

[spitfire4v8]

Assuming no faults then look at spring rates. Wedges are massively stiff at the rear. On the race tasmin we experimented with rear springs as low as 120lb per inch. Fronts were 1200! Though admittedly that gives a wheel rate of only around 400. We used to run no front anti roll bar aswell.

[GOG440]

TA14 said:

GOG440 said:

or is this normal for a wedge in greasy conditions.

fairly

gmw9666 said:

you wearing these?

Good point. Plus how stiff is your suspension? People typically double or triple the spring stiffness these days which doesn't help in damp conditions.

Having said all that, the standard 205/60/15 tyres (or 205/55/15) do give a reasonable amount of warning before it lets go in the dry, you just need to be very sensitive in the wet.

In the dry last year it was brilliant, I was really surprised how well it hung on and I had to be fairly hamfisted getting on the power to make it oversteer,in the wet I was just surprised just how quickly it swapped from being absolutely fine to heading backwards

I have no idea at all what spring rates/ dampers I have on my car, its just whatever it had when I bought it lol

edited to add.
I am wondering if it is a bit too stiff at the back/soft at the front, when the lad was giving me tuition he told me I need to be off the brakes earlier and give the car chance to settle before turning in otherwise the lightly loaded rear had almost no grip!

Edited by GOG440 on Wednesday 9th April 13:00

[Wedg1e]

I did a trackday at Croft in 2001 in my car, first time I'd driven on a circuit and I couldn't make it flow for the life of me - I'm the same in a kart even now
Ended up spinning off when I hit the brake pedal with my clutch foot as I went for a downchange... did about 50 yards sideways then got spat off into the infield. I did better than the Chimaera driver who went off backwards and rearranged the back of his car on the tyre wall... not very forgiving those tyres!

[400SE Dave]

Have done a few track days in the wedge in the dry and wet and found it very predictable. Yes you can get the rear to step out easily, especially in the wet, but I found it quite easy to balance the slide and then get it back in line. I am no driving god either, more like driving dog

Perhaps those lead boots are too eager on the loud pedal

Edited by 400SE Dave on Wednesday 9th April 19:42

[350zwelgje]

Been on a few trackdays, even one last week with no slippery conditions. On Road tyres that after 4 rounds got too elastic.... Still good feel overall and no issues.Next time in the dry I will try semi-slicks to see what happens then.

In the wet it is different, as you are used to grip, but if it lets go it does it very, very quickly in any TVR and also in a wedge. In the wet I slow down a lot and even then you can get caught out.

Even took the wedge drifting and that is very difficult, it is not a drift car and was only to get to know the beast better. The drift experts explained it that the wedge has a very narrow drift angle. To me it felt like: no drifting and going around corners very fast or it tried to snap the rear at such a rate it is nearly impossible to catch. After a couple of hours it was possible to drift, but very difficult and at fast speed. And doing it again would need a couple of hours to get back to find this particular spot that it drifts.

Seems wedges are on/off cars...., with not a lot in between.
Remains that the suspension and alignment play the standard important role, if not ok, no fun on a track.

Rob


Rob

[jon haines]

Ah ah this reminds me, I did a track day early on in my ownership round the three sisters track which is small to say the least, anyway my brakes went spongy after 2 laps and then I lost them on the back straight as I was doing 90mph ran out of track and was on the grass heading for the tyres and thinking oh s**t fortunatly didnt hit anything but there was a strange smell coming from me as I coasted into the pits! My seals on the servo had gone. About a month later went back and loved it but found the suspension too soft for a track.

[GOG440]

350zwelgje said:

BThe drift experts explained it that the wedge has a very narrow drift angle. To me it felt like: no drifting and going around corners very fast or it tried to snap the rear at such a rate it is nearly impossible to catch. After a couple of hours it was possible to drift, but very difficult and at fast speed. And doing it again would need a couple of hours to get back to find this particular spot that it drifts.

Seems wedges are on/off cars...., with not a lot in between.
Remains that the suspension and alignment play the standard important role, if not ok, no fun on a track.

Rob


Rob

I think they were right about the narrow drift angle, thats exactly what was happening.
One of my spins I was just on a very light throttle but there was a bit of water just past the apex which was just enough to put me into a spin.

One of my spins was definitely due to over exuberant use of the loud pedal (first corner of my first flying lap lol)but I learnt my lesson and was much gentler on the throttle from then on

[Englishman]

I regularly tracked my 450SE in the 90's (the car, not me) and found it a predictable track car close to the limit. There was a Griff 4.3 that was often on the track at the same time and the cars (and drivers) were evenly matched. If you're having predictability problems I'd suspect a suspension or tyre issue.

[V8 Fettler]

GOG440 said:

350zwelgje said:

BThe drift experts explained it that the wedge has a very narrow drift angle. To me it felt like: no drifting and going around corners very fast or it tried to snap the rear at such a rate it is nearly impossible to catch. After a couple of hours it was possible to drift, but very difficult and at fast speed. And doing it again would need a couple of hours to get back to find this particular spot that it drifts.

Seems wedges are on/off cars...., with not a lot in between.
Remains that the suspension and alignment play the standard important role, if not ok, no fun on a track.

Rob


Rob

I think they were right about the narrow drift angle, thats exactly what was happening.
One of my spins I was just on a very light throttle but there was a bit of water just past the apex which was just enough to put me into a spin.

One of my spins was definitely due to over exuberant use of the loud pedal (first corner of my first flying lap lol)but I learnt my lesson and was much gentler on the throttle from then on

The turn-in on a trailing arm Wedge can be surprisingly sharp, it's probably rear wheel steer!

[GOG440]

V8 Fettler said:

GOG440 said:

350zwelgje said:

BThe drift experts explained it that the wedge has a very narrow drift angle. To me it felt like: no drifting and going around corners very fast or it tried to snap the rear at such a rate it is nearly impossible to catch. After a couple of hours it was possible to drift, but very difficult and at fast speed. And doing it again would need a couple of hours to get back to find this particular spot that it drifts.

Seems wedges are on/off cars...., with not a lot in between.
Remains that the suspension and alignment play the standard important role, if not ok, no fun on a track.

Rob


Rob

I think they were right about the narrow drift angle, thats exactly what was happening.
One of my spins I was just on a very light throttle but there was a bit of water just past the apex which was just enough to put me into a spin.

One of my spins was definitely due to over exuberant use of the loud pedal (first corner of my first flying lap lol)but I learnt my lesson and was much gentler on the throttle from then on

The turn-in on a trailing arm Wedge can be surprisingly sharp, it's probably rear wheel steer!

Mines not a trailing arm Wedge is it?
Its a series2 on an e plate.

[V8 Fettler]

I think trailing arm was finished by the end of 1985.