US Noble problems

[micknall]

I would just like to put the record straight regarding the mapping problems encountered by Noble owners in the US.

It seems that this has affected a total of five cars to date. The problem has been two-fold:

1. An incorrect map sensor was fitted to some or all of these cars, which sent incorrect messages to their ECUs and made them run poorly. These sensors were supplied by our US distributor, who is now aware of the problem and has updated the sensor's specification;

2. Since the drivetrains in our US cars are fitted by independent engine builders (our US distributor ONLY sells a fully trimmed rolling chassis), we are convinced that a number of errors have been made during installation, again causing the ECU to send incorrect messages to the engine.

Trevor Jasper at Roush Technologies in the UK - our mapping consultant here at the factory - is working closely with our US distributors and is in the process of dealing with each cars' faults, via a computer link-up.

We apologise to all the US owners who've not been able to enjoy their cars due to these faults. We'd like to reassure them that we are doing all that we can and that - if built exactly to UK factory spec - a current Noble is seldom subject to ECU/mapping faults.

Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Noble Automotive Ltd.

[lucozade]

Simon,

I can only take my hat off to Noble for the superb communication to the customers.

It takes a lot to put this kind of feedback on an open internet forum.

[GetCarter]

Kinda' what I was thinking.

I had to get lawyers and the press involved to nudge the BMW 'M' division to even admit there was an issue with a new model.

Steve

[dodgy]

Simon,

Thanks for the email and the service you guys are providing! We appreciate all that you are doing for us US owners.

I have been driving my car the last few days and it feels totally different! What an amazing car....!

I will email you and Trevor my latest Dyno reports as I am not sure if my power band should extend up to 6000RPM.

Thanks again for your responsiveness!

Stephen

[yellowshed]

Stephen - YHM,

I understand from your shop via Mike that your car is now boosting correctly. I hope you can now enjoy the car as it should be.

For the others out there with problems, please bear with us as we work through the possible problems.

YellowShed

[turnbaugh]

In regard to performance of US cars:

The guys here in the US would really like to understand what our expectations should be.

When I drove the 1G demo one thing (of many) that impressed me with the car was the "oh my god-push you back in the seat" that started in the 2500RPM range.

The first days I had my car I had that same feeling, then it went away. I saw a PH post that said, and I think I quote accurately, "all hell breaks loose at 2500 RPMs". My car currently starts pushing you back in the seat at 4000-4500 RPMs, not 2500. I have a GTech unit(www.gtechpro.com)and the best 0-60 I can get is 5.9 secs. Admittedly I am not revving it to 3000RPMs and dumping the clutch, as I don't want to break anything, but 2 secs is a big delta. Can someone definitively answer whether the real acceleration should start at 2500 or 4000-4500? Dean T.

[yellowshed]

Dean, guys,

I'll try and get a suitable picture of the standard power curve with a boost line on it posted somewhere. From that you should be able to see that the car should start to make boost at 2500rpm, come on strong at 3000rpm, peak at 4000rpm and tail off at the higher end to achieve the 350bhp.

If your car is not boosting as per this curve, then there is most likely a mechanical problem preventing the car from boosting, as the ECU runs a closed loop boost system, which means that it knows what boost the engine is making and if it's not enough, or too much, it tries to compensate via the wastegate control.

I'll post later ref the curve etc.

YellowShed

[NoLimits]

turnbaugh said:

In regard to performance of US cars: The guys here in the US would really like to understand what our expectations should be. When I drove the 1G demo one thing (of many) that impressed me with the car was the "oh my god-push you back in the seat" that started in the 2500RPM range. The first days I had my car I had that same feeling, then it went away. I saw a PH post that said, and I think I quote accurately, "all hell breaks loose at 2500 RPMs". My car currently starts pushing you back in the seat at 4000-4500 RPMs, not 2500. I have a GTech unit(<a href="http://www.gtechpro.com"><a href="http://www.gtechpro.com"><a href="http://www.gtechpro.com">www.gtechpro.com</a></a></a>and the best 0-60 I can get is 5.9 secs. Admittedly I am not revving it to 3000RPMs and dumping the clutch, as I don't want to break anything, but 2 secs is a big delta. Can someone definitively answer whether the real acceleration should start at 2500 or 4000-4500? Dean T.

My guess,

If your car was spooling properly at about 2500rpm before ... and now you are not ... you may have a "boost leak" ... most commonly found from a coupler popping loose in the intercooler piping ... but possibly from leaks in other places.

Also, for launching for 0-60 times ... and guaging with your Gtech.

First, G-tech, I used one when their first g-tech pro competition came out about two years ago. They can be very accurate, but ... like in many things ... tuning/calibration is of VITAL importance ... as I am sure you are aware. Just wanted to remind you to check the calibration of the g-sensors ... and also ... I am sure it asks you for vehicle weight ... which is often where most people put incorrect data. Your actual vehicle weight is going to be a difficult thing to determine unless you weigh at a local weigh-in station with you in the car ... taking note of your fuel levels ... and any things you may have with you in the car ... and this data will drastically affect the accuracy of the g-tech.

This could definitely be a margin of error of .5-1 or more seconds .. depending on how inccorect calibration is.

Next, driving it.

Well, as you were touching on .... the 0-60 times that you are comparing to ... being sub-4 seconds ... were done from trial and error ... on what is likely to be a well prepped stretch of pavement ... and consisted of some clutch dumping or slipping from a point where as much power was put to the ground as possible with minimal wheel spin ... and shifting quickly and likely "roughly" ... not caring about breaking anything.

So, first thing I would say is .... while I can understand that you are getting used to your new baby ... and would hate having it back in the shop ... if you want the most performance ... forget about "hurting" the car. Also, to ease your mind, if the clutch and tranny are as good as they should be ... you should get plenty of thousand miles out of them almost no matter what kind of abuse you throw at em. I have a minor upgrade clutch in my 3800lb car ... 3.0 liter single turbo ... around 300rwhp, 340 ft lbs of tq ... and if I want to get straigh-line performance out of my car ... I dump/slip the clutch around 3000-4000rpms off the line ... varying for road and tire conditions .... and I keep my throttle foot pegged to the floor and slam gears fast as long as I am still geting traction ... and 9k miles later .... no issues. Throw the stick like you're throwing punches ... hard and fast. Granted, I do not drive like this for 9k miles ... and I babay my car a good deal of the time too. I would say I may have 1k miles of straight brutal abuse on my drivetrain though ... no issues. Actually, some clutch "shudder" that I had went away after I started slamming gears ... lol.

Launching well on a turbocharged car ... requires some boost building at the line ... or atleast some revs so when you put load on the engine boost will build instantly. Find the sweet spot on your car where you get minimal spin but as much power to the ground immediately. The car will "bog" if you do not get in the power-band ... of course.

Also, if your car is not spooling until around 4k rpms ... then you have a smaller power band ... and it will be more difficult to stay into that power-band ... especially if you aren't revving or building any boost off the line.

This leaves room for error for a few tenths, atleast.

Lastly, wheel spin leaves room for even more performance inefficiency.

I'm no Noble or duratec v6 mechanic, nor an owner, nor have I even driven the car. However, I have driven plenty of 3.0 liter turbocharged cars ... single and twin turbo ... 400-600+rwhp ... so I have a good idea of power bands with those combos .... and ... everyone says the Noble spools fast ... and it seems you imply that what you have heard is that full boost should be reached by 2500rpms. So, essentially ... you answered your own question. If you are not reaching full boost until the 4krpm mark ... you likely have a boost leak somewhere. Not really a big deal at all. Since you said it was spooling properly days ago ... something likely came loose from engine torque,road/driving vibrations and or even boost pressure. It's a matter of finding where the leak is ... and sealing it. Normally this drastic change in spool in short time frame is from intercooler system couplers working loose ... but it could be several things.

Hope this helps. Glad you are enjoying ownership. Congrats. Never got a reply email from you last, if you remember.

To everyone else ... I'd also like to comment ... that communication and assistance seems superb ... and it should definitely be something to be thankful for. My compliments to you and your associates, micknall.

Peace, take care,

Brian

>> Edited by NoLimits on Tuesday 30th November 09:51

[DanH]

turnbaugh said:

In regard to performance of US cars: The guys here in the US would really like to understand what our expectations should be. When I drove the 1G demo one thing (of many) that impressed me with the car was the "oh my god-push you back in the seat" that started in the 2500RPM range. The first days I had my car I had that same feeling, then it went away. I saw a PH post that said, and I think I quote accurately, "all hell breaks loose at 2500 RPMs". My car currently starts pushing you back in the seat at 4000-4500 RPMs, not 2500. I have a GTech unit(www.gtechpro.com)and the best 0-60 I can get is 5.9 secs. Admittedly I am not revving it to 3000RPMs and dumping the clutch, as I don't want to break anything, but 2 secs is a big delta. Can someone definitively answer whether the real acceleration should start at 2500 or 4000-4500? Dean T.

Are you still reading full boost on the gauge when you get to higher revs?

[m12_nathan]

From Trevor:

www.ifgclub.com/gallery/gallery/nathan/Standard%20Power%20Curve%20350bhp.pdf

[turnbaugh]

Thanks for the inputs on this power lag issue. Yes I do have full boost after 4000 RPMs. This issue is that is is very sluggish from 2500-4000. I had a turbo tube pop off a week ago. The car feels like it did with that tube off until 4000 then it pulls like I expect at 2500. I have been told one theory that the catalytic converters may be clogged. So the list could be wastegate, turbo leak, cats, ECU? I presume no one in the UK has seen this exact problem before? I will post a short video of the tach and boost when I get back home this weekend.

[NoLimits]

turnbaugh said:

Thanks for the inputs on this power lag issue. Yes I do have full boost after 4000 RPMs. This issue is that is is very sluggish from 2500-4000. I had a turbo tube pop off a week ago. The car feels like it did with that tube off until 4000 then it pulls like I expect at 2500. I have been told one theory that the catalytic converters may be clogged. So the list could be wastegate, turbo leak, cats, ECU? I presume no one in the UK has seen this exact problem before? I will post a short video of the tach and boost when I get back home this weekend.

Well, the graph actually seems to show that full boost isn't reached until 4krpms .... but 1) there are a lot of variables in graphs/dyno sessions ... and 2) that surely doesn't mean that the spool before 4k wasn't definitely giving you more power than you are experiencing now.

My 2psi, at this time:


It is not likely a wastegate issue if you are reaching full boost ... IMO. The wastegate would have to be open early ... then close itself to allow you to reach full boost ... then open properly to keep peak boost regulated ... while it was venting air ... and that just doesn't make sense to me ... especially if it is pressure controlled ... unless it is electronically controlled ... and you have some "big electrical bugs" ... but even then it is not likely.

It is not likely a clogged catalytic onverter, if you are reaching full boost ... IMO. If your cat was very clogged ... you would not likely be able push much air through it. You would likely only hit about half of standard peak boost.

It could be the ecu, sure, but it seems the way that you described it ... is more like it happened more abrupt ... and I just don't know how the ecu would be affecting it so randomnly/abruptly in this particular application.

If it is the ecu ... or the electrical management ... anywhere ...

One guess would be that somehow it started running rich. Gnerally ... running lean/higher EGTs increases spool time (fatser spool) ... and running rich/lower EGTs increases lag. This could make some sense here too ... because it would increase lag ... but as you drew more air in ... your A/F ratio would be "better" and you may have better efficiency. If you are running "super-rich" ... you would probably be seing some black smoke coming out of your exhaust on acceleration ... so keep an eye out for that. Maybe have somebody follow you and get them on your phone or 2-way radio and play with the throttle and have them tell you if they see anything ... just in case it isn't overt from your perspective while driving.

Ecu could also be messing with your timing and any other sensors that work together in the management system ... and as I mentioned ... even so possible the crazy fritzy wastegates ... opening early ... then closing again ... and opening again to limit boost at peak psi ... but that is highly unlikely .. almost impossible it is so improbable.

My gut tells me that it is a pre-engine/throttle-body leak ... aka ... "boost leak" (just because it is so very common and has similar symptoms to what you describe)... which could allow you to see full boost on your guage .... or even "over-boost" ... but be very laggy due to having a difficult time actually entering your engine ... until it is throwing a whole lot at it. This is normally a leak between the "cold-side"/compressor wheel of the turbo and the throttle body ... aka ... the intercooling system. Take a careful peak at the intercooler ... and ... trace the intercooler pipes as much as you can (I don't know how exposed/enclosed they are at all points) ... looking for any loose connections/leaks.

I seriously doubt that you cracked a turbo housing ... lol.

Don't fret, you'll get it "sorted" and be boosting as it was as soon as you figure out what little "bug" went wrong. Take it to a "pro" and have some peaks with them if you cant get it fixed yourself ... being that it isn't a simple leak that is "easily" found somewhere.

Keep us updated.

Peace,

Brian

EDIT: Darn typos.

>> Edited by NoLimits on Thursday 2nd December 02:11