Private flying
Discussion
Reading the GA magazines it seems that:
Private pilots are an endangered species due to increasing cost and regulation.
The number of new licences issues is plummeting.
Flying schools and clubs are going bust.
While simultaneously hangar space and even outside parking is scarce and extremely expensive
Is it Biz jets etc taking up the hangar space or what?
Private pilots are an endangered species due to increasing cost and regulation.
The number of new licences issues is plummeting.
Flying schools and clubs are going bust.
While simultaneously hangar space and even outside parking is scarce and extremely expensive
Is it Biz jets etc taking up the hangar space or what?
I was amazed at how much the cost of getting a PPL (based on minimum hours) has gone up by. I did mine back in 2006. It cost around £5000. Now you're looking at £7,500+ (that does include everything, from the books to pass the exams, to the fuel and landing fee's). That's a huge increase! My girlfriend was interested in doing it, and I said to her it'd be £5-6k but when we looked it up and saw £7.5k, she was immediately put off by the idea.
As for the hangarage issues. We're based at Gloucester and have a our own hangar for the jets, but we also have 3 privately owned single engine piston planes in our hangar as well. Based on Gloucester's prices, the cost does increase a small amount each year (at the start of April the airport increased their rates, but by a tiny margin. Adding a couple of £'s to the monthly cost of keeping your plane in a hangar). The London airfields however, are very expensive. In some cases it's cheaper to keep your plane in a hangar at an airfield such as Gloucester, than it is to keep it outside at a London airfield. Madness.
You're right when you say that there's a lack of hangar space though! We have enquiries all the time, from owners wanting to put their planes in our hangar, but we've got no more space!
I don't think that biz jets are taking up most of the space really, as there hasn't been a huge increase in the number of them based in the UK. IMHO I think that maybe there has been a small increase in the numbers of all types of a/c, and that has resulted in the lack of space.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with regard to the numbers of PPL's being issued. With rising fuel costs/landing fee's etc, that article may well be right
As for the hangarage issues. We're based at Gloucester and have a our own hangar for the jets, but we also have 3 privately owned single engine piston planes in our hangar as well. Based on Gloucester's prices, the cost does increase a small amount each year (at the start of April the airport increased their rates, but by a tiny margin. Adding a couple of £'s to the monthly cost of keeping your plane in a hangar). The London airfields however, are very expensive. In some cases it's cheaper to keep your plane in a hangar at an airfield such as Gloucester, than it is to keep it outside at a London airfield. Madness.
You're right when you say that there's a lack of hangar space though! We have enquiries all the time, from owners wanting to put their planes in our hangar, but we've got no more space!
I don't think that biz jets are taking up most of the space really, as there hasn't been a huge increase in the number of them based in the UK. IMHO I think that maybe there has been a small increase in the numbers of all types of a/c, and that has resulted in the lack of space.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with regard to the numbers of PPL's being issued. With rising fuel costs/landing fee's etc, that article may well be right
mikef said:
Then you get your PPL and it really starts to get expensive.
If £7.5K over maybe two years isn't in your pocket money allowance, sorry but private flying probably isn't for you
The worst thing would be to spend that and not be able to use the license sufficiently to justify it
I think you've probably got it there. I'm 26 and wanted to become a pilot when i left school but had to bin the idea and moved into IT.If £7.5K over maybe two years isn't in your pocket money allowance, sorry but private flying probably isn't for you
The worst thing would be to spend that and not be able to use the license sufficiently to justify it
I looked only a few years ago at getting a PPL but the real killer is how much is costs to even just buy a share in a small aircraft, never mind actually taking it anywhere.
Stick that with the fight to get on the housing market as a single person which i'm discovering i need to be earning around £40k just to achieve and there really is no room for luxuries like having 'fun'.
I'll be sticking to my RC planes and Heli's i think, maybe a paramotor at best...
That is very true. Flying is a thing which you do if it's your passion. From having no PPL and flying gliders around at weekends, to having a frozen ATPL and being type rated to fly our biz jets, (and this includes everything, including lodging near the training schools which I went to, fuel (for my car) etc.) cost £70,000.... It's an expensive hobby to get into, let alone to start a career in it!
Mikef, you're right in saying that if you think £7.5k is too much money (I'll point out that my gf could afford it, she just thinks that it's far too much money to spend, just to get the licence, which backs up my point that flying for fun is only something which only the people who are passionate about flying, will be willing to fork out the cash to do it. My gf, isn't one of them), then you'll never really be able to afford to go flying regularly enough to keep yourself current as you point out. Just hiring a C152 from one of the schools here costs £170 per hour (including the landing back at Gloucester). When I go flying in the 172, the vast majority of other pilots at every airfield we visit are all much older than myself (I'm 27).
Flying for fun could well be on its way down
Mikef, you're right in saying that if you think £7.5k is too much money (I'll point out that my gf could afford it, she just thinks that it's far too much money to spend, just to get the licence, which backs up my point that flying for fun is only something which only the people who are passionate about flying, will be willing to fork out the cash to do it. My gf, isn't one of them), then you'll never really be able to afford to go flying regularly enough to keep yourself current as you point out. Just hiring a C152 from one of the schools here costs £170 per hour (including the landing back at Gloucester). When I go flying in the 172, the vast majority of other pilots at every airfield we visit are all much older than myself (I'm 27).
Flying for fun could well be on its way down
Edited by High flier on Friday 25th April 15:43
I think the issue is for most people, once you've learnt the PPL and done the usual visits to Kemble, etc, it becomes a means to an end and the end isn't worth the hassle and cost- so people lose currency then drift away.
Different if you get into something longer term - aerobatics, tugging, commercial..
Different if you get into something longer term - aerobatics, tugging, commercial..
I think flying in general doesn't hold the allure it used to. Most peoples experience of flying is in the back of a LoCo, where they are fleeced for every penny. Also people fly a lot more than they used to, so it's nothing special any more.
Also cost is a massive driver, as a young person fresh out of collage, huge student loans, trying to get on the housing ladder, and maybe a young family, spending thousands on a hobby is not an option.
I fly for a living, earn a fair whack, and have loads of free time, and I'm only just getting back into light aircraft due to the cost, after flying professionally for over 15 years.
I think social aspirations and mobility are much reduced today than what they were only 10 years ago. And aviation is an aspirational hobby, so it suffers accordingly.
Also cost is a massive driver, as a young person fresh out of collage, huge student loans, trying to get on the housing ladder, and maybe a young family, spending thousands on a hobby is not an option.
I fly for a living, earn a fair whack, and have loads of free time, and I'm only just getting back into light aircraft due to the cost, after flying professionally for over 15 years.
I think social aspirations and mobility are much reduced today than what they were only 10 years ago. And aviation is an aspirational hobby, so it suffers accordingly.
The decline is global. Look at the US - one of the strongest advocates of GA - private flying is in decline there - a country where flying costs are relatively low, the purchase & running costs of an a/c are deductible against your business & you can fly into any airport you like.
There was a generation of pilots who came back from the War, got themselves established & got back into recreational flying in their 40's & 50's which would equate to the peak years of light aircraft production from the early 1960's - mid 1970's. The sons (& some daughters) of these ex-WW2 pilots also caught the bug & followed in their fathers' footsteps as GA pilots. Subsequent generations often have no living relatives who currently fly or even used to fly & kids increasingly live in a virtual world. Couple that with high costs, increased red-tape & increasingly complex airspace and the attraction begins to wane for all but the most enthusiastic of youngsters. Nothing can touch flying in the wide open spaces for a sense of freedom.
I say this from having learnt to fly in the South Island of New Zealand where we operated out of Christchurch International. The best of both worlds - you got to operate out of a large commercial airfield mixing it with airline traffic yet had ready access to some of the most scenic country imaginable.
There was a generation of pilots who came back from the War, got themselves established & got back into recreational flying in their 40's & 50's which would equate to the peak years of light aircraft production from the early 1960's - mid 1970's. The sons (& some daughters) of these ex-WW2 pilots also caught the bug & followed in their fathers' footsteps as GA pilots. Subsequent generations often have no living relatives who currently fly or even used to fly & kids increasingly live in a virtual world. Couple that with high costs, increased red-tape & increasingly complex airspace and the attraction begins to wane for all but the most enthusiastic of youngsters. Nothing can touch flying in the wide open spaces for a sense of freedom.
I say this from having learnt to fly in the South Island of New Zealand where we operated out of Christchurch International. The best of both worlds - you got to operate out of a large commercial airfield mixing it with airline traffic yet had ready access to some of the most scenic country imaginable.
As said before, it wasn't the cost of getting a PPL that put me off, it's the costs of continuing the hobby especially as the British weather is so restrictive for amateur fliers.
The case of US guys returning from the war and flying being a big business in the 50s/60s was down, I presume, to the lack of restrictive legislation around that time.
Watching old films would have you believe that you could just keep an aircraft in your barn and use a dirt road to take off
The case of US guys returning from the war and flying being a big business in the 50s/60s was down, I presume, to the lack of restrictive legislation around that time.
Watching old films would have you believe that you could just keep an aircraft in your barn and use a dirt road to take off
very few young people flying, let's face it many struggle to get on the housing ladder let alone can afford to spend a lot of cash on a frivolous hobby.
don't think money is the full story though as i do not think the free flight scene is as active and new developments such as paramotors - without the need for a licence - do not seem to be flourishing either.
some ga pilots are moving to microlights to keep the costs down, but it is still not "cheap". i think my "fixed" costs (hangarage / insurance / permit renewal / club fees) are over 2.5k a year before ever starting the engine and this is the cheaper end of the spectrum!
i am getting on for forty and rarely do i bump into younger pilots/owners at airfields or amongst various flying groups i am a member of.
don't think money is the full story though as i do not think the free flight scene is as active and new developments such as paramotors - without the need for a licence - do not seem to be flourishing either.
some ga pilots are moving to microlights to keep the costs down, but it is still not "cheap". i think my "fixed" costs (hangarage / insurance / permit renewal / club fees) are over 2.5k a year before ever starting the engine and this is the cheaper end of the spectrum!
i am getting on for forty and rarely do i bump into younger pilots/owners at airfields or amongst various flying groups i am a member of.
Let's not forget, however, that the financial climate in Europe and the US over the past few years hasn't exactly favoured high cost pastimes like flying, so I can believe student numbers have declined over that period. Still plenty of ab-initio training going on at White Waltham though.
The cost of getting a PPL is a drop in the bucket compared to what you'll end up spending subsequently. The only real certainty is that avgas isn't likely to get much cheaper in the long run, so best burn as much of it as you can now, before the price goes up any further.
For this reason I'm thoroughly looking forward to taking the Yak back up to Glenforsa weekend after next for a few days, for the annual Waltham Radial Hoon around the highlands and islands. £3.56 a minute. Bargain!
eharding said:
Let's not forget, however, that the financial climate in Europe and the US over the past few years hasn't exactly favoured high cost pastimes like flying, so I can believe student numbers have declined over that period. Still plenty of ab-initio training going on at White Waltham though.
The cost of getting a PPL is a drop in the bucket compared to what you'll end up spending subsequently. The only real certainty is that avgas isn't likely to get much cheaper in the long run, so best burn as much of it as you can now, before the price goes up any further.
For this reason I'm thoroughly looking forward to taking the Yak back up to Glenforsa weekend after next for a few days, for the annual Waltham Radial Hoon around the highlands and islands. £3.56 a minute. Bargain!
I remember doing my twin rating and working out it was 10p a second! And that was nearly 20 years ago. Not cheap this flying lark. The cost of getting a PPL is a drop in the bucket compared to what you'll end up spending subsequently. The only real certainty is that avgas isn't likely to get much cheaper in the long run, so best burn as much of it as you can now, before the price goes up any further.
For this reason I'm thoroughly looking forward to taking the Yak back up to Glenforsa weekend after next for a few days, for the annual Waltham Radial Hoon around the highlands and islands. £3.56 a minute. Bargain!
Eric Mc said:
I wonder is lack of interest in flying as a pastime amongst modern young males an issue.
I do get the impression that younger men today don't have the same interests as young men of previous generations - with far less enthusiasm for things mechanical and technical.
I'm not convinced. I can only speak for my own experience but my dad told me how his father kindled his interest in all things mechanical until he went on to do an aeronautical engineering degree before joining the air force.I do get the impression that younger men today don't have the same interests as young men of previous generations - with far less enthusiasm for things mechanical and technical.
I couldn't for the life of me get him to show me how to even service a car. I once got to watch him fit a car radio but that was about it unless an airfix kit counts and I was sufficiently young that I had no idea how the wiring worked or how to read the wiring diagram he had, I probably still couldn't read one of those. He maintained that it wasn't worth servicing a modern car because they were too complicated, I'm only able to do it now because of the internets and as a result I'm bloody useless at it. But the interest is there.
I had all the enthusiasm you could have in flying in my early teens. But I grew too tall for the RAF, which looking at the next generation is likely an issue for many, going the commercial route involved sums of money that I couldn't get my head around at the time and private flying still looks very expensive to a generation that are finding they can't afford the houses their parents could.
IT became the outlet for any technical ambitions I had. It's a logical rather than physical world which is thoroughly unrewarding by comparison but it's much more accessible.
There's a small grass strip near me, with 3x Hangers. A mate of mine has a 1/10th share in a 1962 Cessna 172 which cost him £2k. He pays £25/month for insurance and pays for his fuel. One of the owners does the engineering which is a big help, cost-wise. It's a busy little club, great community spirit.
I did 6 hours of training in the atc in the early 90's, seriously considering PPL after a 45 minute flight in that 172 last week!
It needn't be hugely expensive.
I did 6 hours of training in the atc in the early 90's, seriously considering PPL after a 45 minute flight in that 172 last week!
It needn't be hugely expensive.
Exactly. Private flying was never a particularly cheap past time so only a certain level of people ever really took it up as a hobby.
And, as we keep hearing that the wealthy are getting wealthier - you might suspect that a hobby based on high earning individuals might actually be on the rise.
But that is not the case.
I think the decline in interests such as this is more to do with changes in male culture over the past 30 to 40 years.
And, as we keep hearing that the wealthy are getting wealthier - you might suspect that a hobby based on high earning individuals might actually be on the rise.
But that is not the case.
I think the decline in interests such as this is more to do with changes in male culture over the past 30 to 40 years.
jonnyb said:
I remember doing my twin rating and working out it was 10p a second! And that was nearly 20 years ago. Not cheap this flying lark.
Part of the problem is that if you're renting the entire cost hits you at once. If you have a classic car in your garage which you spend a fortune looking after and only occasionally take out on the road, the per hour cost might work out much the same as flying. But the additional cost of an hours drive is little more than the fuel cost so it doesn't feel as painful.Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff