1500 Midget, oiling plugs. In Norway, diagnose from UK
Discussion
Apologies, I hoped to be concise, but hopefully the detailed post is fairly complete for my situation.
I hope I can get some good advice about my brothers 77 1500 Midget which is oiling up the plugs.
Background:
The car is in Norway. A used engine was fitted several years ago, allegedly 70k miles. I drove the car 600 miles from Stolkholm and engine behaved OK. Can't remember any excessive 'blue smoke' Car had good plugs and HT leads around 2k ago.
Car has done less than 4k miles since then, all very short journeys. Lead additive has been used with unleaded fuel.
Diagnosis from Norwegian mechanic via my un-technical brother "It is continually oiling up one plug and to a lesser extent another plug" - I do not know which plugs and I will not get any further diagnosis before my visit to the car in 2 weeks.
Whether it needs it or not I have arranged for a properly reconditioned head converted to use with unleaded to be shipped to Norway. Inc new valves, seats and guides - on the basis that if the head does not fix the problem then it will be good to have the head for a future engine rebuild.
I know that the oiling up issue could be associated with the existing head or could be oil control rings.
I will not be removing engine or pistons on this trip (maybe in the future) but want best advice to see if it is possible to make the engine work without oiling up the plugs. The car will do less than 2k per year, so some 'non permanent' fix will suffice for now.
Before I ask my specific questions,a little of my background to help you structure any answers appropriately.
I qualified as a mechanic and auto-electrician in the 70's but been out of the trade for 30 years. I practised as an Auto Spark, but on a personal level have done a little of every task on BL / MG cars from complete body rebuild, welding and painting to engine overahul (inc pistons rings, bearings etc), but not often enough to be the most efficient at diagnosis or repair.
The car has not driven for 2 years.
When I arrive in Norway I intend to get the car started with clean plugs and do as much diagnosis before removing the head.
I will have a compression tester with me.
Without me wasting your time further, telling you what I think I need to do I will ask.
My questions:
What is your best guestimate in percentage as to what is causing the issue:
1. Plugs, HT issue (I think local mechanic will have cleaned / tested )
2. Anything to do with the head.
3. The oil control rings or anything to do with the pistons / bore.
4. Something else
What steps should I take to diagnose the oiling up of the plugs (with existing head still in place)? ie how accurately can I diagnose a head or oil control ring issue?
If this diagnosios is not 100% certain what diagnosis can I do with the head off (either on the old head, or more relevantly on the block and pistons).
Assuming I am left with any possibility of an oil control ring problem (or any other issue regarding the pistons and block) is there any modern additive / compound that I can 'pour' around the pistons to improve compressions (if necessary) and more importantly reduce excess oil getting to the plugs. I am completely out of touch with modern 'repair liquids'.
Can you recommend equipment I will need apart from:
AF Socket set - with long bar
AF combination spanners
Compression tester
Torque wrench
Feeler guage
Plastic / rubber pipe to retune carbs.
Can you recommend any parts I should organise apart from:
A complete cylinder head kit with all relevant gaskets.
New oil and filter.
Can you direct me to useful web pages / videos which will help with the procedure.
If and when it comes to (as a minimum) replacing the oil control rings, (not on this trip)what thoughts do you have in doing this 'in place' with a sump and head removal (replacing bearings and thrust bearings at the same time) vs engine out - bearing in mind I will have to beg steal or borrow equipemnt / facilities.
Thanks in anticipation Colin
I hope I can get some good advice about my brothers 77 1500 Midget which is oiling up the plugs.
Background:
The car is in Norway. A used engine was fitted several years ago, allegedly 70k miles. I drove the car 600 miles from Stolkholm and engine behaved OK. Can't remember any excessive 'blue smoke' Car had good plugs and HT leads around 2k ago.
Car has done less than 4k miles since then, all very short journeys. Lead additive has been used with unleaded fuel.
Diagnosis from Norwegian mechanic via my un-technical brother "It is continually oiling up one plug and to a lesser extent another plug" - I do not know which plugs and I will not get any further diagnosis before my visit to the car in 2 weeks.
Whether it needs it or not I have arranged for a properly reconditioned head converted to use with unleaded to be shipped to Norway. Inc new valves, seats and guides - on the basis that if the head does not fix the problem then it will be good to have the head for a future engine rebuild.
I know that the oiling up issue could be associated with the existing head or could be oil control rings.
I will not be removing engine or pistons on this trip (maybe in the future) but want best advice to see if it is possible to make the engine work without oiling up the plugs. The car will do less than 2k per year, so some 'non permanent' fix will suffice for now.
Before I ask my specific questions,a little of my background to help you structure any answers appropriately.
I qualified as a mechanic and auto-electrician in the 70's but been out of the trade for 30 years. I practised as an Auto Spark, but on a personal level have done a little of every task on BL / MG cars from complete body rebuild, welding and painting to engine overahul (inc pistons rings, bearings etc), but not often enough to be the most efficient at diagnosis or repair.
The car has not driven for 2 years.
When I arrive in Norway I intend to get the car started with clean plugs and do as much diagnosis before removing the head.
I will have a compression tester with me.
Without me wasting your time further, telling you what I think I need to do I will ask.
My questions:
What is your best guestimate in percentage as to what is causing the issue:
1. Plugs, HT issue (I think local mechanic will have cleaned / tested )
2. Anything to do with the head.
3. The oil control rings or anything to do with the pistons / bore.
4. Something else
What steps should I take to diagnose the oiling up of the plugs (with existing head still in place)? ie how accurately can I diagnose a head or oil control ring issue?
If this diagnosios is not 100% certain what diagnosis can I do with the head off (either on the old head, or more relevantly on the block and pistons).
Assuming I am left with any possibility of an oil control ring problem (or any other issue regarding the pistons and block) is there any modern additive / compound that I can 'pour' around the pistons to improve compressions (if necessary) and more importantly reduce excess oil getting to the plugs. I am completely out of touch with modern 'repair liquids'.
Can you recommend equipment I will need apart from:
AF Socket set - with long bar
AF combination spanners
Compression tester
Torque wrench
Feeler guage
Plastic / rubber pipe to retune carbs.
Can you recommend any parts I should organise apart from:
A complete cylinder head kit with all relevant gaskets.
New oil and filter.
Can you direct me to useful web pages / videos which will help with the procedure.
If and when it comes to (as a minimum) replacing the oil control rings, (not on this trip)what thoughts do you have in doing this 'in place' with a sump and head removal (replacing bearings and thrust bearings at the same time) vs engine out - bearing in mind I will have to beg steal or borrow equipemnt / facilities.
Thanks in anticipation Colin
Id start with a compression test , id be hoping to see 150psi on each pot ...
Next id get it idling until hot maybe sitting for 20 mins idling then boot it to see it any blue smoke comes out ?
Next id get it idling again until hot then just stop it. Next id remove the inlet and exhaust manifolds and see with a good torch if there is any oil getting past the valve guides into the combustion chamber ....
After that id be getting the head of for inspection for cracks in the head and checking the glazing on the bores .....
Next id get it idling until hot maybe sitting for 20 mins idling then boot it to see it any blue smoke comes out ?
Next id get it idling again until hot then just stop it. Next id remove the inlet and exhaust manifolds and see with a good torch if there is any oil getting past the valve guides into the combustion chamber ....
After that id be getting the head of for inspection for cracks in the head and checking the glazing on the bores .....
@Colin: it sounds like you could teach me a lot about mechanics, but I notice you have not mentioned a "dry and wet" compression test. First do an ordinary (dry) compression test. Then add about a spoonful of oil through the plug hole for each cylinder in turn and test the compression again. Any big improvement in the readings would indicate a ring problem in that cylinder.
Other than the weight...I'd assume an engine swap would be a pretty easy task. Certainly easier than an engine rebuild in situ.
Can you source a known good engine here in UK, then take it over and install it ?
Really..it's bound to save you a lot of grief and time and with a known outcome.
The oil could be head related, piston related, other.
Inspect any crankcase breathers and if they route into the intake that might cause the oily plug.
Remove intake and see if there are signs of oily valve guides which might be a cause.
I wouldnt be convinced a compression test is going to tell you much useful really.
Can you source a known good engine here in UK, then take it over and install it ?
Really..it's bound to save you a lot of grief and time and with a known outcome.
The oil could be head related, piston related, other.
Inspect any crankcase breathers and if they route into the intake that might cause the oily plug.
Remove intake and see if there are signs of oily valve guides which might be a cause.
I wouldnt be convinced a compression test is going to tell you much useful really.
Thanks for the replies.
I had intended to do a dry and wet compression test, but forgot to mention - old age :-)
Certainly worth doing, but I agree with steveturbo that it will probably not identify oil control ring issues.
Cost of transporting an engine (even if it was a good one) would be >£120, so as long as I do not find excessive bore wear or scores on bore an engine out and rebuild in Norway at some future stage may be the solution. However not on this trip. So I need to make the most of the new head fit plus anything else I can do on this occasion.
Thanks for the suggestions for checking inlet and exhaust ports for oil - I would probably have missed that.
Assuming the issue is head related (or not to do with the bore / oil control rings then I will have some confidence that the new head will resolve the issue.
I would appreciate if someone could look at my tools list and see if I have missed any important tool that I might not be able to get there.
Any suggestions for modern liquid engine 'fixer' that I could maybe pour around the pistons to increase compressions and reduce oil coming up the bore - I realise this would not be a permanent fix but might give the engine some life for a few years of minimal mileage.
Thanks Colin K
I had intended to do a dry and wet compression test, but forgot to mention - old age :-)
Certainly worth doing, but I agree with steveturbo that it will probably not identify oil control ring issues.
Cost of transporting an engine (even if it was a good one) would be >£120, so as long as I do not find excessive bore wear or scores on bore an engine out and rebuild in Norway at some future stage may be the solution. However not on this trip. So I need to make the most of the new head fit plus anything else I can do on this occasion.
Thanks for the suggestions for checking inlet and exhaust ports for oil - I would probably have missed that.
Assuming the issue is head related (or not to do with the bore / oil control rings then I will have some confidence that the new head will resolve the issue.
I would appreciate if someone could look at my tools list and see if I have missed any important tool that I might not be able to get there.
Any suggestions for modern liquid engine 'fixer' that I could maybe pour around the pistons to increase compressions and reduce oil coming up the bore - I realise this would not be a permanent fix but might give the engine some life for a few years of minimal mileage.
Thanks Colin K
You need to check the air filter/s and breather. If the filters are blocked the engine will suck crankcase fumes from the breather and burn the oil.
I would remove the carburetor dashpots and check for oil coming in. If there is a lot of it the you need to rinse the inlet manifold using carburetor cleaner, replace the dashpots and vent the breather through a filter to atmosphere, then connect the breather ports on the carbs.
If this doesn't work then it's going to be some form of engine surgery, a compression test won't say whether the oil control rings have gone or the valve stem seals, if it's either then you really need to take a rebuild kit with you or have some sort of plan to get the work done.
I would remove the carburetor dashpots and check for oil coming in. If there is a lot of it the you need to rinse the inlet manifold using carburetor cleaner, replace the dashpots and vent the breather through a filter to atmosphere, then connect the breather ports on the carbs.
If this doesn't work then it's going to be some form of engine surgery, a compression test won't say whether the oil control rings have gone or the valve stem seals, if it's either then you really need to take a rebuild kit with you or have some sort of plan to get the work done.
Thanks for your input Gavin.
Fairly sure the filters are OK but will check both filters and breather before fitting the new head. I am keen to diagnose the issue rather than just hope the new head (inc valve stem rubbers and valve guides) fixes the problem.
If someone could look over my tools list in post 1 to see if I have missed anything important. At home I can just go to the local motor factors to buy whatever I need. Not so easy close to the Arctic circle in Norway.
Thanks Colin
Fairly sure the filters are OK but will check both filters and breather before fitting the new head. I am keen to diagnose the issue rather than just hope the new head (inc valve stem rubbers and valve guides) fixes the problem.
If someone could look over my tools list in post 1 to see if I have missed anything important. At home I can just go to the local motor factors to buy whatever I need. Not so easy close to the Arctic circle in Norway.
Thanks Colin
ColinK2 said:
Any suggestions for modern liquid engine 'fixer' that I could maybe pour around the pistons to increase compressions and reduce oil coming up the bore - I realise this would not be a permanent fix but might give the engine some life for a few years of minimal mileage.
Thanks Colin K
they just tend to be thick gloop that thickens the oil so much it cant get past the wear n tear , stick with a good brand in the thickest grade thats reccomended for thier tempsThanks Colin K
as a work around you could possibly look at fitting a hotter plug to the cly that fouls worst
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