LPG - What's the actual beneft?
Discussion
Hi folks,
Anyone on here know much about LPG? I'm trying to work out what the long term benefits are to the wider world - specifically around sustainability.
I know its cheaper for us minions (tax reasons) - but the government would only do this if it can be outwardly perceived as being 'green'. A quick Google brings up a number of facts below. All sound great, BUT isn't this still coming from petrol, therefore no more sustainable than what we have now?
Does it use less petrol in the refining process or something? Or is it merely exactly the same as ordinary petrol, just in gas form and therefore less toxic when it comes out of the ol' pipes?
Ta!
Paul.
Anyone on here know much about LPG? I'm trying to work out what the long term benefits are to the wider world - specifically around sustainability.
I know its cheaper for us minions (tax reasons) - but the government would only do this if it can be outwardly perceived as being 'green'. A quick Google brings up a number of facts below. All sound great, BUT isn't this still coming from petrol, therefore no more sustainable than what we have now?
Does it use less petrol in the refining process or something? Or is it merely exactly the same as ordinary petrol, just in gas form and therefore less toxic when it comes out of the ol' pipes?
internet said:
From http://www.lpg-cars.co.uk/lpgbenefits
Our view is that LPG is a cleaner fuel specifically:
◦LPG produces 33% less CO2 emissions than petrol and 45% less CO2 than diesel.
◦LPG vehicles produce upto 82% less Nitrogen Oxide pollutants than petrol and 99% better than diesel !
◦63% less Carbon Monoxide.
◦40% less Hydrocarbons than petrol and 70% less than diesel.
◦50% less particulates than petrol and 98% less than diesel. These caused the London warning in 2005.
Anyone know? IF it uses less comparitave fossil fuels and is notabley greener AND cheaper to buy then why on earth didn't it take off? The infrastructure is largely already here, unlike electric motoring.Our view is that LPG is a cleaner fuel specifically:
◦LPG produces 33% less CO2 emissions than petrol and 45% less CO2 than diesel.
◦LPG vehicles produce upto 82% less Nitrogen Oxide pollutants than petrol and 99% better than diesel !
◦63% less Carbon Monoxide.
◦40% less Hydrocarbons than petrol and 70% less than diesel.
◦50% less particulates than petrol and 98% less than diesel. These caused the London warning in 2005.
Ta!
Paul.
ShaunTheSheep said:
As I understand it there are larger accessible reserves of gas than oil.
It seems like battery is the next big thing so I doubt gas will see prime time any time soon. When oil becomes too expensive I expect nuclear to take over.
A lot of LPG will be burnt in power stations to charge car batteries...It seems like battery is the next big thing so I doubt gas will see prime time any time soon. When oil becomes too expensive I expect nuclear to take over.
I've also never really understood why is isn't more popular. Some manufacturers did make models to run on LPG but they didn't sell.
Once a conversion is done it saves you around a third compared to petrol. I think one of the issues was that until recently it wasn't readily available.
There was no use in having a vehicle running LPG if you had to travel 30 miles to get fuel.
Once a conversion is done it saves you around a third compared to petrol. I think one of the issues was that until recently it wasn't readily available.
There was no use in having a vehicle running LPG if you had to travel 30 miles to get fuel.
LPG is a by-product of refining crude oil and also from natural gas production. If it's not used it would have to be stored, or be burnt off if that was too expensive. All in all better to burn it in lovely big V8 engines IMO 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_g...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_g...
Paul O said:
?....The infrastructure is largely already here, unlike electric motoring.
Do you live somewhere without electricity? We have the everygy capacity for all our charging needs. An average driver needs about 9kwh per day....about the same as running a hob or shower for an hour.98elise said:
Paul O said:
?....The infrastructure is largely already here, unlike electric motoring.
Do you live somewhere without electricity? We have the everygy capacity for all our charging needs. An average driver needs about 9kwh per day....about the same as running a hob or shower for an hour.Petrol stations can (and have been) adopted to cater for LPG and should the uptake be such could be expanded quickly across the country, therefore providing no limits below that of current petrol/diesel alternatives.
If you are caught short on leccy power - you've got nowhere to go. Electric stations are being increased, but there is still the inevitable time delay and of course the infrastucture cost. I'm not knocking the electric car model (I've had an i3 for a few days and think its absolutely awesome in almost every way).
What I am questioning is why LPG hasn't been taken up. If it is no worst than petrol to create from an environmental perspective - and it is more beneficial in terms of crap that the car will ultimately spit out - why are we now all driving diesels and not LPG cars? And why is electric cars (and the environmental expense that ensues in creating batteries) looking like the future. Why not LPG?
The debate is intended to focus on LPG and why its not been taken up. If the answer to that is because it is environmentally worse than Electric, no better than petrol in terms of sustainability, and worse LPG than diesel then fair enough.
Is that the case though, hence the question?
It's largely down to misinformation peddled by people who really should know better (often mechanics IMO)
1. You're driving with a bomb in the boot. Well no because it's stored at very low pressures, with more safety solenoids and non return valves than a petrol setup, and with a tank which is designed to stay intact in just about every car crash scenario.
2. If there's a fire it'll go off like a bomb. Well again, no, the pressure relief valve will release the gas in a controlled way through the safety hoses, generally towards the ground where it can burn relatively harmlessly, whilst your plastic petrol tank has already split open and spilt its guts all over the road just ready to go up.
3. You'll lose all your boot space or spare wheel. Many options here, if it's a 4x4, put them underneath, they're fairly safe to go offroading with them there, provided they're mounted solidly though I wouldn't advise using them as rock sliders. Put a tank in the spare wheel well, most cars don't come with spares now anyway so it's not a huge loss, and you can always get a spare wheel bag and keep it in your boot, still allowing you to remove it now and again.
4. You'll lose loads of power. Not if it's a decent quality setup with a reducer up to the engine specs, with decent injectors and the right spec piping, I've heard reports of some engines actually being happier on gas. Both of mine certainly run quieter but the Volvo does feel like it lacks a little bit of its bite - but it is due a filter change.
5. It's really complicated. I'd wager less complicated than a petrol system. There's no pump, for a start. And it keeps the oil cleaner, and produces lower emissions.
6. The Government will just increase the duty to match that of petrol. Well no they won't, and they keep promising they won't. It's a green fuel in low demand, and too many people have invested in systems as long term affairs.
7. It'll never pay for itself. Possibly true if you're planning to LPG a Prius which let's face it is never going to be a megamiler old barge in years to come, but even if it was, it doesn't drink enough to make it worthwhile. The thirstier the car is, the quicker the investment pays off, assuming the number of cylinders (and therefore price of kit) stays the same. A 30mpg motor will generally pay for itself in c. 20k.
8. Diesel does all the things LPG does and gets twice the range between fill ups. Perhaps, but when you're being shaken to bits at the traffic lights, your dual mass flywheel, diesel particulate filters, high pressure injectors and overstressed turbos all start to fall to bits you'll wish you had that big N/A petrol barge wafting along on gas, and sounding so much better in the process. Not to mention not pumping out all that carcinogenic muck.
I love lpg, me! Currently running a 205k Volvo C70 T5 auto on a Prins VSI system, along with a 1961 Series Landy on a much simpler single point setup. Don't plan on going near diesels again, any time soon...
1. You're driving with a bomb in the boot. Well no because it's stored at very low pressures, with more safety solenoids and non return valves than a petrol setup, and with a tank which is designed to stay intact in just about every car crash scenario.
2. If there's a fire it'll go off like a bomb. Well again, no, the pressure relief valve will release the gas in a controlled way through the safety hoses, generally towards the ground where it can burn relatively harmlessly, whilst your plastic petrol tank has already split open and spilt its guts all over the road just ready to go up.
3. You'll lose all your boot space or spare wheel. Many options here, if it's a 4x4, put them underneath, they're fairly safe to go offroading with them there, provided they're mounted solidly though I wouldn't advise using them as rock sliders. Put a tank in the spare wheel well, most cars don't come with spares now anyway so it's not a huge loss, and you can always get a spare wheel bag and keep it in your boot, still allowing you to remove it now and again.
4. You'll lose loads of power. Not if it's a decent quality setup with a reducer up to the engine specs, with decent injectors and the right spec piping, I've heard reports of some engines actually being happier on gas. Both of mine certainly run quieter but the Volvo does feel like it lacks a little bit of its bite - but it is due a filter change.
5. It's really complicated. I'd wager less complicated than a petrol system. There's no pump, for a start. And it keeps the oil cleaner, and produces lower emissions.
6. The Government will just increase the duty to match that of petrol. Well no they won't, and they keep promising they won't. It's a green fuel in low demand, and too many people have invested in systems as long term affairs.
7. It'll never pay for itself. Possibly true if you're planning to LPG a Prius which let's face it is never going to be a megamiler old barge in years to come, but even if it was, it doesn't drink enough to make it worthwhile. The thirstier the car is, the quicker the investment pays off, assuming the number of cylinders (and therefore price of kit) stays the same. A 30mpg motor will generally pay for itself in c. 20k.
8. Diesel does all the things LPG does and gets twice the range between fill ups. Perhaps, but when you're being shaken to bits at the traffic lights, your dual mass flywheel, diesel particulate filters, high pressure injectors and overstressed turbos all start to fall to bits you'll wish you had that big N/A petrol barge wafting along on gas, and sounding so much better in the process. Not to mention not pumping out all that carcinogenic muck.
I love lpg, me! Currently running a 205k Volvo C70 T5 auto on a Prins VSI system, along with a 1961 Series Landy on a much simpler single point setup. Don't plan on going near diesels again, any time soon...
I looked at LPG on a Camry estate a while back, the cost would have been as much as I paid for the car.
100,000 miles later I regretted this!
LPG, as the name suggests, is a liquid. It is stored as a liquid, carried as a liquid, and pumped as a liquid. Consequently a 50L tank in the boot holds 50Litres of fuel!
It isn't going to explode like a bomb, even if the car catches fire, in which case you're normal fule tank will probably go up anyway. It will vent through the overpressure valve and might well become an entertaining flame thrower, but you're not going to be making craters.
I considered it on the Gransport (my local place have done a Ferrari Dino amongst other exotica) but as these things are being seen as collectable and the boot is laughably small anyway, I'm not bothered.
Now if I got my hands on a W12 Phaeton OTOH....
100,000 miles later I regretted this!
LPG, as the name suggests, is a liquid. It is stored as a liquid, carried as a liquid, and pumped as a liquid. Consequently a 50L tank in the boot holds 50Litres of fuel!
It isn't going to explode like a bomb, even if the car catches fire, in which case you're normal fule tank will probably go up anyway. It will vent through the overpressure valve and might well become an entertaining flame thrower, but you're not going to be making craters.
I considered it on the Gransport (my local place have done a Ferrari Dino amongst other exotica) but as these things are being seen as collectable and the boot is laughably small anyway, I'm not bothered.
Now if I got my hands on a W12 Phaeton OTOH....
I'm in the process of sticking some pennies to one side to get my car converted. It seems to be getting me 18-20mpg at the moment and that is on V Power. The owners I've spoken to who are running the same engine on LPG are getting around the same on LPG. Given that LPG is around 65p a litre and V Power is 140p a litre it makes sense to switch. By my simple calculations the savings in 12 months of running on LPG are the same if not greater than the cost of the conversion.
Due to a change in commute I have done an LPG conversion on my 98 Lexus GS300, already had 141k on the clock.
Other car's in the family already have conversions, main reason for me is cost as commute is changing from 11 miles to 120 miles a day. Don't want to change cars as I regret selling my last one.
£28 got me 240 miles, in petrol for that amount I would have got 110 miles? All local driving at this point in stop start driving.
Performance remains the same, it was never a quick car and used as my daily sofa on wheels, have lost the spare tyre in the boot but no biggie can always keep the tyre in the boot itself as it's massive boot or have a Tyreweld can
If your keeping it long term then do it, I don't plan on selling my car for a very long time, not until I can afford an F10 M5 or Panamera to go along with the soon to purchase in the next few months GTR
Other car's in the family already have conversions, main reason for me is cost as commute is changing from 11 miles to 120 miles a day. Don't want to change cars as I regret selling my last one.
£28 got me 240 miles, in petrol for that amount I would have got 110 miles? All local driving at this point in stop start driving.
Performance remains the same, it was never a quick car and used as my daily sofa on wheels, have lost the spare tyre in the boot but no biggie can always keep the tyre in the boot itself as it's massive boot or have a Tyreweld can
If your keeping it long term then do it, I don't plan on selling my car for a very long time, not until I can afford an F10 M5 or Panamera to go along with the soon to purchase in the next few months GTR
t scared of the government, despite what they might promise, hiking up the cost as soon as everyone invested in the infrastructure, just like they did with diesel. We wont be falling for that one again.I did look into it, but it all seemed a bit 'home-brew'.
You have to research all of the different kits available.
Then research all the installers and their methods / preferences - and probably end up driving to the other end of the country to get it done.
I considered that losing the boot space would be a pain.
Then my BMW Indy said he didn't really want to service a 'mucked around with' car as he had in the past and frankly didn't need the extra hassle.
Then I realised the LPG system needed servicing at a different interval at a different place - which would be a ball-ache.
It then seems common that if the car becomes ill, you can spend much time being bounced between your regular mechanic / LPG installer as they decide the other is causing the problem whilst you are left nursing the patient.
Then I realised none of my local garages have LPG on draft and the place that did it 15 miles away was putting the price up almost monthly!
And finally I worked out that the pay-back period was good on paper, but in reality I'd switch the car before the sums added up and end up costing myself more.
So I gave up and stuck to the green dino-juice pump.
You have to research all of the different kits available.
Then research all the installers and their methods / preferences - and probably end up driving to the other end of the country to get it done.
I considered that losing the boot space would be a pain.
Then my BMW Indy said he didn't really want to service a 'mucked around with' car as he had in the past and frankly didn't need the extra hassle.
Then I realised the LPG system needed servicing at a different interval at a different place - which would be a ball-ache.
It then seems common that if the car becomes ill, you can spend much time being bounced between your regular mechanic / LPG installer as they decide the other is causing the problem whilst you are left nursing the patient.
Then I realised none of my local garages have LPG on draft and the place that did it 15 miles away was putting the price up almost monthly!
And finally I worked out that the pay-back period was good on paper, but in reality I'd switch the car before the sums added up and end up costing myself more.
So I gave up and stuck to the green dino-juice pump.
warninglight said:
1. You're driving with a bomb in the boot. Well no because it's stored at very low pressures, with more safety solenoids and non return valves than a petrol setup, and with a tank which is designed to stay intact in just about every car crash scenario.
2. If there's a fire it'll go off like a bomb. Well again, no, the pressure relief valve will release the gas in a controlled way through the safety hoses, generally towards the ground where it can burn relatively harmlessly, whilst your plastic petrol tank has already split open and spilt its guts all over the road just ready to go up.
For me one big downside of LPG is that you can't use the Channel Tunnel. This is apparently because if the LPG leaks it is heavier than air, so it accumulates at the lowest point and slowly builds up... until you get a massive explosion.2. If there's a fire it'll go off like a bomb. Well again, no, the pressure relief valve will release the gas in a controlled way through the safety hoses, generally towards the ground where it can burn relatively harmlessly, whilst your plastic petrol tank has already split open and spilt its guts all over the road just ready to go up.
And if you have a metal container filled with LPG and you heat it enough, it WILL explode. Regardless of any pressure relief valves. You see it all the time when there are factory fires and LPG cylinders on site. Boom.
It's handy for me as the installer I am planning to use has been running his own LPG converted car with the same engine for a few years now, several other people have had their cars (again same engine) converted by him with no issues. My local Morrisons sell LPG and there is another LPG filling station a few miles away. Several dyno runs have shown the same if not more power when running on LPG.
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