Discussion
Went to a intro party yesterday for the V12VS at the local AM dealer in Massachusetts. Shows you how slowly we get the goods here in the States.
2 really stunning builds. One in China gray and the other in black. Would love the (mildly) updated V12, but I really like my manual V12V and I've already eaten all the depreciation.
Sorry, no pics. Forgot my camera.
My friend did take pics so I'll post up when he sends them to me.
2 really stunning builds. One in China gray and the other in black. Would love the (mildly) updated V12, but I really like my manual V12V and I've already eaten all the depreciation.
Sorry, no pics. Forgot my camera.
My friend did take pics so I'll post up when he sends them to me.
CPBRI said:
Went to a intro party yesterday for the V12VS at the local AM dealer in Massachusetts. Shows you how slowly we get the goods here in the States.
2 really stunning builds. One in China gray and the other in black. Would love the (mildly) updated V12, but I really like my manual V12V and I've already eaten all the depreciation.
Sorry, no pics. Forgot my camera.
My friend did take pics so I'll post up when he sends them to me.
Forgive me, but i have to point out that its a radically updated V12!!2 really stunning builds. One in China gray and the other in black. Would love the (mildly) updated V12, but I really like my manual V12V and I've already eaten all the depreciation.
Sorry, no pics. Forgot my camera.
My friend did take pics so I'll post up when he sends them to me.
Variable Valve Timing
Hollow forged Camshafts
Machined combustion Chambers
Knock sensing [Bosch engine management]
Relocated oil pump
etc
These changes give more mpg with less emissions [so they can be sold in the US of A]. 70Nm more torque at 1500rpm [if memory serves me well?] with 55bhp increase. At Millbrook proving ground, i'm pretty sure we're hitting 100mph in around 7 seconds with 2 occupants, and its pulling over 170mph at three/quarters of a mile from a standing start.
We also ran 8 20mph rolling starts side by side with V12S against V12, please see youtube "Head to Head - Aston Martin V12 Vantage S & V12 Vantage", and every run gave the same result.
Now, i adore the V12 Vantage "stick", but the V12S with Sportshift3 and Adaptive damping is in another league!
Please book yourself a test-drive, and make the salesperson do an extended demo to explain Sportshift3 thoroughly. You need to do a couple of full throttle gear shifts [in Sport Mode], and you need to try optimal downshifting [accelerate in 5th gear, then immediately go for reasonably firm braking, and simultaneously hold in the downshift paddle, wow!].
roughrider said:
Forgive me, but i have to point out that its a radically updated V12!!
Variable Valve Timing
Hollow forged Camshafts
Machined combustion Chambers
Knock sensing [Bosch engine management]
Relocated oil pump
etc
These changes give more mpg with less emissions [so they can be sold in the US of A]. 70Nm more torque at 1500rpm [if memory serves me well?] with 55bhp increase. At Millbrook proving ground, i'm pretty sure we're hitting 100mph in around 7 seconds with 2 occupants, and its pulling over 170mph at three/quarters of a mile from a standing start.
We also ran 8 20mph rolling starts side by side with V12S against V12, please see youtube "Head to Head - Aston Martin V12 Vantage S & V12 Vantage", and every run gave the same result.
Now, i adore the V12 Vantage "stick", but the V12S with Sportshift3 and Adaptive damping is in another league!
Please book yourself a test-drive, and make the salesperson do an extended demo to explain Sportshift3 thoroughly. You need to do a couple of full throttle gear shifts [in Sport Mode], and you need to try optimal downshifting [accelerate in 5th gear, then immediately go for reasonably firm braking, and simultaneously hold in the downshift paddle, wow!].
All immensely good stuff, but a V12V can't get all the power down without the DSC light flickering and even if you get lucky you'll still be in three figures in a few seconds, so being able to have enough speed in fifth to brake hard and do the downshift magic means you're way above the speed limit. Variable Valve Timing
Hollow forged Camshafts
Machined combustion Chambers
Knock sensing [Bosch engine management]
Relocated oil pump
etc
These changes give more mpg with less emissions [so they can be sold in the US of A]. 70Nm more torque at 1500rpm [if memory serves me well?] with 55bhp increase. At Millbrook proving ground, i'm pretty sure we're hitting 100mph in around 7 seconds with 2 occupants, and its pulling over 170mph at three/quarters of a mile from a standing start.
We also ran 8 20mph rolling starts side by side with V12S against V12, please see youtube "Head to Head - Aston Martin V12 Vantage S & V12 Vantage", and every run gave the same result.
Now, i adore the V12 Vantage "stick", but the V12S with Sportshift3 and Adaptive damping is in another league!
Please book yourself a test-drive, and make the salesperson do an extended demo to explain Sportshift3 thoroughly. You need to do a couple of full throttle gear shifts [in Sport Mode], and you need to try optimal downshifting [accelerate in 5th gear, then immediately go for reasonably firm braking, and simultaneously hold in the downshift paddle, wow!].
I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
V12woollie said:
All immensely good stuff, but a V12V can't get all the power down without the DSC light flickering and even if you get lucky you'll still be in three figures in a few seconds, so being able to have enough speed in fifth to brake hard and do the downshift magic means you're way above the speed limit.
I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
Yes, but unfortunately, the market wants more power, higher speed, quicker times etc. In reality, making a 205mph car a driveable GT is probably the biggest achievement....I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
roughrider said:
V12woollie said:
All immensely good stuff, but a V12V can't get all the power down without the DSC light flickering and even if you get lucky you'll still be in three figures in a few seconds, so being able to have enough speed in fifth to brake hard and do the downshift magic means you're way above the speed limit.
I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
Yes, but unfortunately, the market wants more power, higher speed, quicker times etc. In reality, making a 205mph car a driveable GT is probably the biggest achievement....I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
People - he knows what he's talking about
V12woollie said:
All immensely good stuff, but a V12V can't get all the power down without the DSC light flickering and even if you get lucky you'll still be in three figures in a few seconds, so being able to have enough speed in fifth to brake hard and do the downshift magic means you're way above the speed limit.
I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
Evening Simon, a standard V12 Vantage is a wondrous thing no question. The V12 VS moves the whole game on. You are not the target audience, AM want and need new blood. The dismal failure of the 991 GT3 is a gift from the Gods. So many customers have switched over to AM. As for ASM3 it works so very well as long as people realise that it is not a slush box. It is a Automated Manual! My own V8S has been enhanced by BR with a twin plate clutch though even then it is not up to V12S standards. As for DSC lights flickering, look away and keep it nailed! I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
MollyGTi said:
roughrider said:
V12woollie said:
All immensely good stuff, but a V12V can't get all the power down without the DSC light flickering and even if you get lucky you'll still be in three figures in a few seconds, so being able to have enough speed in fifth to brake hard and do the downshift magic means you're way above the speed limit.
I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
Yes, but unfortunately, the market wants more power, higher speed, quicker times etc. In reality, making a 205mph car a driveable GT is probably the biggest achievement....I thought the V12VS was great when I drove one, but not £140k great or £60k cost to change great. And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, plus it has a proper sticky thing in the cockpit :-)
People - he knows what he's talking about
I know Paul knows his stuff but I'd debate whether it is the market that wants those things or the manufacturers wanting to be the top dog. In any real world situation a V12VS isn't really going to get anywhere quicker than a V12V. On a track I'd agree it would be the top dog.
Of course Rob makes a good point and the V12VS is the natural progression for the Vantage. But I'd wager if AM had asked the potential market what they wanted it would be offered with a manual box as well as ASM3.
roughrider said:
Yes, but unfortunately, the market wants more power, higher speed, quicker times etc. In reality, making a 205mph car a driveable GT is probably the biggest achievement....
Apparently, some of "the market" hasn't gotten the news otherwise this story wouldn't be true:http://m.leftlanenews.com/manual-transmission-z51-...
FWIW: I'm part of "the market" and I just placed an order for a manual gearbox Vantage. Apparently more than 30% of new Vantages are spec'd this way. I would suspect this percentage would be higher if you factor out dealers. They order more SportShift cars than manuals. My sales manager told me he orders his mostly with SportShift so as to appeal to women in the US who don't generally like stick shifts.
Edited by KarlFranz on Monday 5th May 21:27
V12woollie said:
Evening Molly X
I know Paul knows his stuff but I'd debate whether it is the market that wants those things or the manufacturers wanting to be the top dog. In any real world situation a V12VS isn't really going to get anywhere quicker than a V12V. On a track I'd agree it would be the top dog.
Of course Rob makes a good point and the V12VS is the natural progression for the Vantage. But I'd wager if AM had asked the potential market what they wanted it would be offered with a manual box as well as ASM3.
Its clear to me that it's the market that wants it. I'd wager plenty of people buy super high power ferraris, Astons and HiFi equipment and NEVER go to 60% of peak performance. Simply knowing that you can outrun whatever's at the red light is often enough. Many of us don't really stop playing top trumps.I know Paul knows his stuff but I'd debate whether it is the market that wants those things or the manufacturers wanting to be the top dog. In any real world situation a V12VS isn't really going to get anywhere quicker than a V12V. On a track I'd agree it would be the top dog.
Of course Rob makes a good point and the V12VS is the natural progression for the Vantage. But I'd wager if AM had asked the potential market what they wanted it would be offered with a manual box as well as ASM3.
V12woollie said:
Evening Molly X
I know Paul knows his stuff but I'd debate whether it is the market that wants those things or the manufacturers wanting to be the top dog. In any real world situation a V12VS isn't really going to get anywhere quicker than a V12V. On a track I'd agree it would be the top dog.
Of course Rob makes a good point and the V12VS is the natural progression for the Vantage. But I'd wager if AM had asked the potential market what they wanted it would be offered with a manual box as well as ASM3.
Its clear to me that it's the market that wants it. I'd wager plenty of people buy super high power ferraris, Astons and HiFi equipment and NEVER go to 60% of peak performance. Simply knowing that you can outrun whatever's at the red light is often enough. Many of us don't really stop playing top trumps.I know Paul knows his stuff but I'd debate whether it is the market that wants those things or the manufacturers wanting to be the top dog. In any real world situation a V12VS isn't really going to get anywhere quicker than a V12V. On a track I'd agree it would be the top dog.
Of course Rob makes a good point and the V12VS is the natural progression for the Vantage. But I'd wager if AM had asked the potential market what they wanted it would be offered with a manual box as well as ASM3.
V12woollie said:
... you'll still be in three figures in a few seconds, so being able to have enough speed in fifth to brake hard and do the downshift magic, means you're way above the speed limit.
And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, ...
And a V12V is more than enough for UK roads, ...
That's a coincidence.
I say the same about the V8V, but even more power is apparently good.
I can`t wait for the more powerful special edition Vantage GTE, replacement for the V12VS. I just hope it has that wonderful loud GTE sound, with valves of course, to keep the spoil sports happy.
I really wanted a manual. It is clear there is a much bigger market for paddle shift supersports cars than for manuals, but with the V12 being the last available manual V12 I think it was a reason for some people to choose Aston over other brands. For example, in my case it was at least a reason for me not to consider an F Type which in some rational ways is a better car, even if it is not nearly such a lovely item.
As for the comparison between Sportshift 3 and dual clutch, personally if I have an auto at all I want instant smooth changes. I can have that from Porsche, Ferrari or Mclaren, so Sportshift is a negative for me of the V12S - not that I am for a moment suggesting it isn't a wonderful car, or that the latest SS transmission isn't a great improvement over earlier versions. But I either want a clutch pedal, or a smooth instant change. And actually in a sports car I want a clutch pedal.
On value, some people will never think a new car is good value against a used one; but as new cars go, the V12S is pretty good value against any credible opposition - Bentley, Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren, Lambo et al. Sure you can get a 550 bhp car for less from premium as opposed to luxury makers (the F Type is an example) but Aston shouldn't and couldn't compete in that market.
On what performance is enough, the V8 would certainly have had enough performance for me, but there was an extra wow factor about the V12 which had me lusting after it in a different way. Strange really, if I bought a Porsche it would be a C2S, not one of the faster ones.
As for the comparison between Sportshift 3 and dual clutch, personally if I have an auto at all I want instant smooth changes. I can have that from Porsche, Ferrari or Mclaren, so Sportshift is a negative for me of the V12S - not that I am for a moment suggesting it isn't a wonderful car, or that the latest SS transmission isn't a great improvement over earlier versions. But I either want a clutch pedal, or a smooth instant change. And actually in a sports car I want a clutch pedal.
On value, some people will never think a new car is good value against a used one; but as new cars go, the V12S is pretty good value against any credible opposition - Bentley, Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren, Lambo et al. Sure you can get a 550 bhp car for less from premium as opposed to luxury makers (the F Type is an example) but Aston shouldn't and couldn't compete in that market.
On what performance is enough, the V8 would certainly have had enough performance for me, but there was an extra wow factor about the V12 which had me lusting after it in a different way. Strange really, if I bought a Porsche it would be a C2S, not one of the faster ones.
Three/four months in the V12VS and I'l take it over my old V12V any day, it's just a better, more focused car. I've never really understood why anyone who's buying a snarling V12 monster would use the "XYZ is more than enough for UK roads" argument.
Oh and I'm still not missing the manual shift!
Oh and I'm still not missing the manual shift!
Edited by JBaps on Tuesday 6th May 00:15
V12V owner here. Test drove an S - original post here: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/33... and was surprised to find I least liked full throttle upshifts on SS3. Didn't think the fully automated mode (D button) or part throttle upshifts were bad at all, contrary to all the media reports. Came away with the impression that the car can certainly do the comfortable cruiser role better than the original V12V but was unable to replicate the raw feel of the original. However, my drive was limited due to location and traffic, and I would love to hear some detailed assessments on this latter item from S owners who have upgraded from the original.
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