Since when did Mk 2 Jags start commanding 6 figs???
Discussion
madness. Lovely cars but not at 100K+. I struggle with bog standard Series 1 E Types at that level, again nice cars but far too much money.
If it is collectors and speculation driving this then it would pay to look at the history of asset bubbles before you take the dive. Start with googling the words 'Tulip', 'Holland' and 'Bubble'.
If it is collectors and speculation driving this then it would pay to look at the history of asset bubbles before you take the dive. Start with googling the words 'Tulip', 'Holland' and 'Bubble'.
For what it is worth - for a rust box possibly 3K, for running but ropey 2.4 Auto maybe 10 - 15K, for a concours 3.8 manual 40 - 50K. then there are the beachams which are over engineered and have had the character removed but some like the period look but with modern performance (just buy a modern IMHO). Original Coombs will probably command more but 100K - utterly bonkers.
Please don't say they are worth what people will pay for them - that is pure dealer chat. The auction houses are a more accurate guide to street prices. You won't see many Mk 2's going through auction north of 50K.
My personal opinion is that plenty of people will buy classics and tire of the constant upkeep or trips to specialists as they are not real enthusiasts (cash rich/time poor peeps). Those cars that sit in collections will bomb in value as no-one in their right mind will buy a classic that hasn't been properly fettled every 2/3 months.
Its the same contagious insanity that worked its way through Spanish propert market in the noughties - of course property here will only go one way - not.
Please don't say they are worth what people will pay for them - that is pure dealer chat. The auction houses are a more accurate guide to street prices. You won't see many Mk 2's going through auction north of 50K.
My personal opinion is that plenty of people will buy classics and tire of the constant upkeep or trips to specialists as they are not real enthusiasts (cash rich/time poor peeps). Those cars that sit in collections will bomb in value as no-one in their right mind will buy a classic that hasn't been properly fettled every 2/3 months.
Its the same contagious insanity that worked its way through Spanish propert market in the noughties - of course property here will only go one way - not.
All the ones in the classifieds at those sorts of prices seem to have been modernised to some extent or other, so wouldn't be eligible for any historic events at all. As someone who knows almost nothing about these cars, the huge spread of prices of the cars currently for sale is quite bewildering.
thegreenhell said:
All the ones in the classifieds at those sorts of prices seem to have been modernised to some extent or other, so wouldn't be eligible for any historic events at all. As someone who knows almost nothing about these cars, the huge spread of prices of the cars currently for sale is quite bewildering.
One of the Jag rags a year or so back had an article about someone who'd apparently spent north of 500K at JD Classics on modernising a Mk2 to the extent of having RR style umbrellas. Completely effing nuts. Not even a DB5 is value at these levels. You are far better with a modern Jag or Aston. Most of these old cars have little of their original character left anyway. If it is relatively cheap, great. When it gets too expensive to be fun it's time to bail out. The real enthusiast today buys a V8V for £28k and knows the right places to get it fettled. Only a lunatic pays £280k for a DB6 or 100k for a Mk.2. Sir William Lyons would laugh his head off.
Mr. Magoo said:
madness. Lovely cars but not at 100K+. I struggle with bog standard Series 1 E Types at that level, again nice cars but far too much money.
If it is collectors and speculation driving this then it would pay to look at the history of asset bubbles before you take the dive. Start with googling the words 'Tulip', 'Holland' and 'Bubble'.
The vast majority of Mk 2's are not at this level as I'm sure you know. If it is collectors and speculation driving this then it would pay to look at the history of asset bubbles before you take the dive. Start with googling the words 'Tulip', 'Holland' and 'Bubble'.
In fact you even confirm this yourself which makes the purpose of your post somewhat confusing.
In general I would say that Mk 2's are under-priced for what is regarded by many as the seminal saloon car of all time.
They are expensive to restore properly and at current price levels the costs would not be recouped.
Edited by mph on Wednesday 7th May 07:53
I try get to Beaulieu Auto-Jumble most years. As well as hundreds of stalls selling old tat they also have a car park full of cars for sale.
About six or seven years ago there was a bright red 3.8 Jag Mk2 which has stuck in my memory because it was so immaculate. Unfortunately I don't have any photos.
I admit to not knowing much about them but this car looked faultless. Better than new. Inside and out, under the bonnet, everything was gleaming. A new restoration obviously and probably not original. The asking price was £22,000.
About six or seven years ago there was a bright red 3.8 Jag Mk2 which has stuck in my memory because it was so immaculate. Unfortunately I don't have any photos.
I admit to not knowing much about them but this car looked faultless. Better than new. Inside and out, under the bonnet, everything was gleaming. A new restoration obviously and probably not original. The asking price was £22,000.
I agree with mph's comments, when you consider that there were about 90,000 mk2s made and 70,000 E Types the enormous difference in price is surprising.
In fact you even confirm this yourself which makes the purpose of your post somewhat confusing.
In general I would say that Mk 2's are under-priced for what is regarded by many as the seminal saloon car of all time.
They are expensive to restore properly and at current price levels the costs would not be recouped.
mph said:
Mr. Magoo said:
madness. Lovely cars but not at 100K+. I struggle with bog standard Series 1 E Types at that level, again nice cars but far too much money.
If it is collectors and speculation driving this then it would pay to look at the history of asset bubbles before you take the dive. Start with googling the words 'Tulip', 'Holland' and 'Bubble'.
The vast majority of Mk 2's are not at this level as I'm sure you know. If it is collectors and speculation driving this then it would pay to look at the history of asset bubbles before you take the dive. Start with googling the words 'Tulip', 'Holland' and 'Bubble'.
In fact you even confirm this yourself which makes the purpose of your post somewhat confusing.
In general I would say that Mk 2's are under-priced for what is regarded by many as the seminal saloon car of all time.
They are expensive to restore properly and at current price levels the costs would not be recouped.
Edited by mph on Wednesday 7th May 07:53
AJAX50 said:
Even if 10% of the production run remain in existence (probably about right) this is still not a rare care and values can't be driven by scarcity.Neither should values be driven by 'cost of restoration'. If I spent 500K on my 100K council flat, I wouldn't be getting 600K for it on the market. I was foolish to do it without the security of assured resale value. Therefore people/dealers who spend thousands well beyond auction prices are embarking on a folly.
I recognise these are only advertised prices and not achieved prices. An unmolested, rust free, 3.8 Manual OD in the right colour combination that's well spannered should get about 40K - this represents value for money on the outlay against fun returned curve. Don't forget 100K gets you a pretty pokey classic (F355,) a damned good family car (Audi RS6) and a fun little runaround (mini cooper) for example. 100K is also 4 times the average annual salary in this country. It is a lot of money and I don't care if it was the first out of the Coombs garage with Graham Hills gloves still in the glove box or Ronnie Krays blood on the door sill - They aren't worth more than 40 - 50K.
When I grew up my father had 3. 2 sitting in the field to keep the other one going. They were nice but all I remember being towed from Calais to Bordeaux on holiday and back from Devon.
mph said:
The vast majority of Mk 2's are not at this level as I'm sure you know.
True, but it only takes one buyer to pay that sort of speculative price and suddenly every dealer is touting them at that level. Watch this space...
mph said:
They are expensive to restore properly and at current price levels the costs would not be recouped.
Quite, but has that not always been the case with MK 2s? What makes today any different?Anyway, I don't think it is the headline prices that, by themselves, should be ringing alarm bells. It is the rate of inflation which seems to have spiralled enormously over a short few months. Yes, prices have been (significantly)increasing over the last few years but at a steady rate. They are currently going mental...
It makes no sense at all when the 420 S type is the superior car let alone when reasonable condition series 3 XJ 12's can be bought for 4 figures and can be converted to manual transmission easily.
My theory is that prices bear more relation to uninformed hype amongst buyers than the actual driving qualities of the car.
My theory is that prices bear more relation to uninformed hype amongst buyers than the actual driving qualities of the car.
Baby Boomers means a higher than average level of free capital in the hands of the older male in the West.
The massive growth of middle wealth in Asia and elsewhere.
The commoditisation of classic cars as structural assets to cross border tax avoidance.
Zero rates means excess cash is actively seeking capital growth.
Population growth.
It's over 25 years on from the last crash and these types of cars are categorically not being made anymore.
£100k is not as valuable as £100k just seven years ago. Like with house prices, not all increases are down to the underlying assets but due to the fall in worth of the currency it is being priced in.
Dealers being dealers and customers being typical blokes.
All these factors combine to create these enormous asset values.
The massive growth of middle wealth in Asia and elsewhere.
The commoditisation of classic cars as structural assets to cross border tax avoidance.
Zero rates means excess cash is actively seeking capital growth.
Population growth.
It's over 25 years on from the last crash and these types of cars are categorically not being made anymore.
£100k is not as valuable as £100k just seven years ago. Like with house prices, not all increases are down to the underlying assets but due to the fall in worth of the currency it is being priced in.
Dealers being dealers and customers being typical blokes.
All these factors combine to create these enormous asset values.
XJ Flyer said:
It makes no sense at all when the 420 S type is the superior car let alone when reasonable condition series 3 XJ 12's can be bought for 4 figures and can be converted to manual transmission easily.
My theory is that prices bear more relation to uninformed hype amongst buyers than the actual driving qualities of the car.
This situation has existed ever since they stopped being old cars and became classic cars.My theory is that prices bear more relation to uninformed hype amongst buyers than the actual driving qualities of the car.
Classic sports are always worth more than saloons
Open tops are worth more than tin tops
In 60 Jaguars (pre-XJ)
value when new "value" now
Mk10 (420G) Mk2
420 S-Type
S-Type Mk10 (420G)
Mk2 420
why should their be any logic in classic cars
Logic tells us a basic Ford Focus is a better car than any of them. My XKR is a better car than my XK150 but as much as I might love it, I still find the XK150 to be a more engaging toy to play with.
Now in the case of the 60s Jags, Mk2s seem to be the one most people have fond memories of. Even back in period the Mk2 proved surprisingly popular and eventually outlasted the Mk3 (S-Type).
a8hex said:
XJ Flyer said:
It makes no sense at all when the 420 S type is the superior car let alone when reasonable condition series 3 XJ 12's can be bought for 4 figures and can be converted to manual transmission easily.
My theory is that prices bear more relation to uninformed hype amongst buyers than the actual driving qualities of the car.
This situation has existed ever since they stopped being old cars and became classic cars.My theory is that prices bear more relation to uninformed hype amongst buyers than the actual driving qualities of the car.
Classic sports are always worth more than saloons
Open tops are worth more than tin tops
In 60 Jaguars (pre-XJ)
value when new "value" now
Mk10 (420G) Mk2
420 S-Type
S-Type Mk10 (420G)
Mk2 420
why should their be any logic in classic cars
Logic tells us a basic Ford Focus is a better car than any of them. My XKR is a better car than my XK150 but as much as I might love it, I still find the XK150 to be a more engaging toy to play with.
Now in the case of the 60s Jags, Mk2s seem to be the one most people have fond memories of. Even back in period the Mk2 proved surprisingly popular and eventually outlasted the Mk3 (S-Type).
XJ Flyer said:
It makes no sense at all when the 420 S type is the superior car let alone when reasonable condition series 3 XJ 12's can be bought for 4 figures and can be converted to manual transmission easily.
My theory is that prices bear more relation to uninformed hype amongst buyers than the actual driving qualities of the car.
Driving quality has nothing to do with values. It's about pedigree. My theory is that prices bear more relation to uninformed hype amongst buyers than the actual driving qualities of the car.
The Mk2 got all the press coverage, all the kudos, the image and the racing. My father was just about the only person who raced a 420 back in the late 60's.
It's all about having enough of a story and enough of a supply for salesmen to invest in pushing them. Most people have never heard of the 420 so it's pretty much dead in the water until Mk2 values price out the majority and the sellers go looking for the next product.
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