Discussion
is the best, most complete driver in the world, ever. 
Cheating git, He drove Kimi off the track under a waved yellow. How was Michael supposed to know that round the next corner there wasn't another incident, or a marshal wasn't still there or anything? He didn't give Kimi any room whatsoever when he could of done and still have passed at the next corner under a green flag as he had the momentum. There was no need to force him onto the grass.
The rule is simple :- You wait until you see and pass a green flag.
I'm sorry I have lost a lot respect for Schumacher, he has several times cheated to win world championships but this year has been a joke. The Rubins saga and this was not needed IMHO.
As for him being the best driver ever, I totally disagree. What about Fangio and Senna, in grand prix (and there are lots of drivers in other dissaplines). Schumacher has had the best car, end of story really.
>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 22 July 01:13
The rule is simple :- You wait until you see and pass a green flag.
I'm sorry I have lost a lot respect for Schumacher, he has several times cheated to win world championships but this year has been a joke. The Rubins saga and this was not needed IMHO.
As for him being the best driver ever, I totally disagree. What about Fangio and Senna, in grand prix (and there are lots of drivers in other dissaplines). Schumacher has had the best car, end of story really.
>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 22 July 01:13
i understand your point of view, and agree to an extent.
The fact remains that he's simply in another league from his contemporaries. Such bending of the rules, while distasteful, uncalled for, is just another aspect of his own take on complete mental dominance.
At the wheel he's often an arse, in front of cameras he's a prima donna, but schumacher as a competitor is untouchable. I think that without his talent this would have been a pretty poor era for motor racing.
The fact remains that he's simply in another league from his contemporaries. Such bending of the rules, while distasteful, uncalled for, is just another aspect of his own take on complete mental dominance.
At the wheel he's often an arse, in front of cameras he's a prima donna, but schumacher as a competitor is untouchable. I think that without his talent this would have been a pretty poor era for motor racing.
I quite agree over recent years he has shown the way in F1. In the wet he is a phenominal driver. He clearly does deserve to win the championship when compared to the current talent. There is competative and sportsmanship and I feel he has lost the latter in his bid to become the champion.
The other problem I see though is how F1 has died, the mechanics and designers have transformed F1 and not for the better IMHO. I would love to see it go back to basics, lose the driver aids, get cars that can slipstream and then we would have proper racing again. At the moment I have more fondness for the MotoGP and club racing in which racing is racing, and the winner is determined by good driving.
The other problem I see though is how F1 has died, the mechanics and designers have transformed F1 and not for the better IMHO. I would love to see it go back to basics, lose the driver aids, get cars that can slipstream and then we would have proper racing again. At the moment I have more fondness for the MotoGP and club racing in which racing is racing, and the winner is determined by good driving.
Schumacher is without any doubt one of the greatest drivers ever. I think trying to rate him with Senna, Fangio etc is tempting, but pointless. They are all great, so were many others including Stirling, Stewart, Prost etc. But I think it has to be said that with the exception of Hakkinen (and Villeneuve when he was with Williams) over the past 5 years Schumacher has had very little consistenly good competition against which to prove himself. He is good but other drivers have made him look even better. He joined an uncompetitive Ferrari team as a competent driver and demonstrated with the undoubted help of Todt and Brawn that he can also contribute to car development as well as just drive. The other drivers gave Schue time to think while he races and that just palyed into his cool, percentages game.
I agree that it would be good to remove so many of the driver assist devices - launch control and traction control would be the first 2 on my list. I know safety was the reason for launch control but I would advocate a rolling start as a solution to the problem of stalled cars on the grid.
It is difficult to see who might move into the ascendancy when Schue eventually starts to wane or retire. I think F1 has failed to groom talent and the bizarre 'handling' of potentially very good drivers such as Button has contributed to the void.
I'm disappointed that Coulthard is destined to be remembered as also ran and that McNish will only manage a single season in F1. His time came too late. The other driver that I would have liked to see join F1 3 years ago was Dario Franchitti - he was a potential F1 World Champion but ended up in CART.
Hutch
I agree that it would be good to remove so many of the driver assist devices - launch control and traction control would be the first 2 on my list. I know safety was the reason for launch control but I would advocate a rolling start as a solution to the problem of stalled cars on the grid.
It is difficult to see who might move into the ascendancy when Schue eventually starts to wane or retire. I think F1 has failed to groom talent and the bizarre 'handling' of potentially very good drivers such as Button has contributed to the void.
I'm disappointed that Coulthard is destined to be remembered as also ran and that McNish will only manage a single season in F1. His time came too late. The other driver that I would have liked to see join F1 3 years ago was Dario Franchitti - he was a potential F1 World Champion but ended up in CART.
Hutch
quote:
Cheating git, He drove Kimi off the track under a waved yellow
I thought Kimi had already driven himself off the track, and was trying to rejoin, which he had to do without interfering with other traffic - a move which MS enforced rather emphatically.
I don't think there's a problem passing a car which is off the track under yellows... although I stand to be corrected.
I don't see how you can compare different drivers from different eras of Formula One. I mean how do you compare drivers such as Rosemeyer who drove the 600 bhp Auto Unions and Mercedes in the pre war years with the drivers of today? Personally I would argue that they were far better adn more corageous than the drivers of today.
Also people like Moss, Fangio and Clark drove anything - sports cars, endurance racing at Sebring, the Targa and Le Mans, rally cars- they could whereas today you are lucky to see them outside of their motorhomes
That said five world titles is a great achievement and people should applaud Schumi - personally I am a fan of his - for what he has done and for the fact that he is the best of the current crop. The really amazing thing is that he has missed out on three more tiles for various reasons so we could be talking about an eight time world champion ......
Also people like Moss, Fangio and Clark drove anything - sports cars, endurance racing at Sebring, the Targa and Le Mans, rally cars- they could whereas today you are lucky to see them outside of their motorhomes
That said five world titles is a great achievement and people should applaud Schumi - personally I am a fan of his - for what he has done and for the fact that he is the best of the current crop. The really amazing thing is that he has missed out on three more tiles for various reasons so we could be talking about an eight time world champion ......
And fair play to the pointed chin wunderkind
he said as much at the post race press conference
he said - unfair to compare him with fangio - he said those guys where doing something much more physical much more demanding, he went on to say that F1 is much more about the team and the package rather than driver talent
so he is not completely arrogant.
I don't think after five worldchampionships you can really argue.
the Irony here is that if you switched off the driver aids, dialled in less downforce and aided slipstreaming - schumacher would be able to dominate even further (as the best most complete driver)
he said as much at the post race press conference
he said - unfair to compare him with fangio - he said those guys where doing something much more physical much more demanding, he went on to say that F1 is much more about the team and the package rather than driver talent
so he is not completely arrogant.
I don't think after five worldchampionships you can really argue.
the Irony here is that if you switched off the driver aids, dialled in less downforce and aided slipstreaming - schumacher would be able to dominate even further (as the best most complete driver)
quote:
I don't see how you can compare different drivers from different eras of Formula One
Indeed the earlier Champions were lucky to live long enough to compete for that number of seasons - Fangio must have been exceptionally lucky as well as good.
Have a look at http://user.tninet.se/~aiq291w/Fatalities_Head.htm - sobering reading.
Had Senna still been around, F1 might be a whole lot more interesting, with some real driving competition for MS.
I seem to remember Schumacher loosing a 'fun' race in the past (might have been go-karts) so he doesn't do it anymore. I'm sure I saw recently that McRae challenged him to a rally/F1 race and he declined.
He is good, but also an arrogant cheat. Also if he is so great, how come Baricello has out-qualified him AND out driven him on a couple of occasions this season. Irvine (another arrogant driver I dislike) also pushed him hard when at Ferrari.
Sparks
He is good, but also an arrogant cheat. Also if he is so great, how come Baricello has out-qualified him AND out driven him on a couple of occasions this season. Irvine (another arrogant driver I dislike) also pushed him hard when at Ferrari.
Sparks
Rules are clear on passing under a yellow, don't do it... a car that is off the track, however, can be passed. The guy with the highest winning profile is the one who gets the sour grapes.
Also, comparing Schumaker to past champions is a subjective excercise, no real comparisons can be drawn. Even statistics cant really help. "Three types of lies in the world, white lies, black lies and statistics, in that order".
Schumaker is a champion because of his consistency and because, as he said, the team package is so good. Of course others will beat him occasionaly, but they don't beat him consistently, that's the difference.
H
Also, comparing Schumaker to past champions is a subjective excercise, no real comparisons can be drawn. Even statistics cant really help. "Three types of lies in the world, white lies, black lies and statistics, in that order".
Schumaker is a champion because of his consistency and because, as he said, the team package is so good. Of course others will beat him occasionaly, but they don't beat him consistently, that's the difference.
H
quote:
He is good, but also an arrogant cheat. Also if he is so great, how come Baricello has out-qualified him AND out driven him on a couple of occasions this season. Irvine (another arrogant driver I dislike) also pushed him hard when at Ferrari.
Sparks
If he didn't toss a few crumbs over to his teammates, Schumacher would have trouble convincing even reasonably quick yesmen to sell their souls.
quote:
Rules are clear on passing under a yellow, don't do it... a car that is off the track, however, can be passed.
I thinks thats the point, was Kimi off the track when schumi passed him? or as in my opinion Kimi ran very wide left the track for a fraction of a second got straight back on without touching the grass then was forced back off by Schumi. I don't think theres any doubt that he deliberately forced Kimi back off the track and IMHO that is extremely dangerous and unnecessary esp. when its under a waved yellow.
>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 22 July 11:17
quote:
quote:
Rules are clear on passing under a yellow, don't do it... a car that is off the track, however, can be passed.
I thinks thats the point, was Kimi off the track when schumi passed him? or as in my opinion Kimi ran very wide left the track for a fraction of a second got straight back on without touching the grass then was forced back off by Schumi. I don't think theres any doubt that he deliberately forced Kimi back off the track and IMHO that is extremely dangerous and unnecessary esp. when its under a waved yellow.
>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 22 July 11:17
Nope, he was definitely off the track in the runoff area...
H
quote:
I don't see how you can compare different drivers from different eras of Formula One.
I seem to recall reading a report in Motorsport magazine where Schumi had tested one of the Ferrari turbo's of the 80's. Apparently he was petrified by the lack of safety equipment as was significantly slower around Marenello than the original drivers...
so when the playing field is levelled - as in wet conditions etc - how come schumacher always slices the others apart...
You can bitch all you want - yes he has crossed the line on sportsmanship/cheating on more than one occasion - but he has won 61 grand prix over seven years - and the title five times - its more than luck it is skill.
How many times has he outqualifyed barrechello -, how many times has he out paced him on raceday
and yet you guys mention the like four or five times its been the other way round...
I don't particularly like the guy --- but come on respect the talent!
You can bitch all you want - yes he has crossed the line on sportsmanship/cheating on more than one occasion - but he has won 61 grand prix over seven years - and the title five times - its more than luck it is skill.
How many times has he outqualifyed barrechello -, how many times has he out paced him on raceday
and yet you guys mention the like four or five times its been the other way round...
I don't particularly like the guy --- but come on respect the talent!
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