Diesel - the new enemy.

[braddo]

It's funny how things can change - might the French Greens help put diesel cars to the sword?!!

There's an interesting article in the French press about a proposed law being submitted to the French senate by the Greens, which is to levy a significant annual tax on NEW diesel cars - starting €500/year and rising by 10% per year - with the aim of virtually eradicating the sale of new diesel cars within 10 years (something that apparently Tokyo has managed to do in a similar period).

By taxing new vehicles and not changing fuel duty, it doesn't penalise drivers of old diesels (particularly since people were encouraged to buy diesels through tax incentives for decades).

This is all in the name of improving air quality and reducing airborne diesel particulates which are now believed to be carcenogenic.

Some interesting facts about the French car market that are mentioned in the article:
- pre-2000 diesels are obviously the worst polluting and there are 19 million of them in France, which is 27% of the national fleet
- 60% of the national fleet are diesels. The figure was 5% in 1980.
- 73% of new registrations are diesels (vs 55% European average)

Then there comes the more political and contentious stuff, about how moving back to petrol will improve tax revenues (high fuel duty on petrol), job creation converting older cars to cleaner power, lives saved through better air quality etc.


It will be interesting to see if the bill gets any support in the senate and whether it leads to similar actions in other countries.

Are the days of the rattly diesel numbered?

[Mr SFJ]

That's a pretty good idea. But the UK won't adopt it, or if they will people will still buy diesels because they believe it saves them money when the reality can be different.

[BGarside]

They're not looking at the bigger picture. If diesels are carcinogenic (with DPFs, are they?) then that should help kill off a few people and reduce the population, which in turn will have a positive effect on the environment as each person creates a massive amount of polution during their life.

[SturdyHSV]

Mr SFJ said:

That's a pretty good idea. But the UK won't adopt it, or if they will people will still buy diesels because they believe it saves them money when the reality can be different.

Or it'll be spread over the finance term and it'll be 'just £10 per month'.

Remember, all money is measured 'per month', any long term and actual costs are immaterial.

Why? Well people want all the stuff they 'deserve' right NOW, and something's price is simply how much it costs 'per month', it doesn't matter how long you pay it for, it's only relevant 'per month' as that means you can 'afford' it

[MajorProblem]

Mr SFJ said:

That's a pretty good idea. But the UK won't adopt it, or if they will people will still buy diesels because they believe it saves them money when the reality can be different.

I've just spent £25k on a new diesel that saves me £6.50 a week on fuel compared to my old petrol car. It's great I'm saving loads!

This is a common thing I hear at work.

[illmonkey]

MajorProblem said:

Mr SFJ said:

That's a pretty good idea. But the UK won't adopt it, or if they will people will still buy diesels because they believe it saves them money when the reality can be different.

I've just spent £25k on a new diesel that saves me £6.50 a week on fuel compared to my old petrol car. It's great I'm saving loads!

This is a common thing I hear at work.

Right up here with

"Omg what a flash car, you must have loads of money"

"err, it cost a quarter of your stty eurobox astra"

[MajorProblem]

You pay HOW MUCH to tax your car? Lol

[TurboHatchback]

I'm all for punitively taxing new diesel cars and making the public aware of how unpleasant diesels are as diesel engines are nasty things which chuck out all sorts of carcinogenic unpleasantness. It would stimulate more development focus on petrol units and hopefully shift both private and fleet buyers into petrol vehicles. This could only be a good thing for the health of the population, the environment and peoples quality of life in urban environments.

[otolith]

There is an underlying conflict between the desire of Greens to reduce CO2 emissions and their desire to reduce local levels of air pollutants which are hazardous to human health. Diesels are good for CO2, bad for local air quality. Local and global objectives are at odds.

[okie592]

So are they gonna run buses, lorries, comercial vans etc on petrol? Cause those are the ones chucking out the most crap. Not the cars.

[TurboHatchback]

okie592 said:

So are they gonna run buses, lorries, comercial vans etc on petrol? Cause those are the ones chucking out the most crap. Not the cars.

I wish they would. Buses are horrendous things, when they set off anyone in the near vicinity gets instant smokers lung. I think LPG commercial vehicles would be a marvelous development but I can't see it happening any time soon.

[mp3manager]

okie592 said:

So are they gonna run buses, lorries, comercial vans etc on petrol? Cause those are the ones chucking out the most crap. Not the cars.

That's a load of ste.

Trucks have been complying with Euro 6 for years.

[otolith]

It's difficult to compare Euro emissions standards between cars and heavy vehicles, because the units of measurement are different, but even Euro6 vehicles do still pollute.

[Mr SFJ]

In Bristol, the buses are followed everywhere by a permanant trail of burnt tarmac and black exhaust smoke. I had the displeasure of following one for a couple of miles the other day and had to wind my window up and put the recirc on it was that bad.

LPG for things like buses, skip carrier lorries, refuse trucks etc would benefit, if the LPG was more accessible (can only talk for Bristol), I know of one LPG station and that, technically isn't in Bristol

[scherzkeks]

TurboHatchback said:

I'm all for punitively taxing new diesel cars and making the public aware of how unpleasant diesels are as diesel engines are nasty things which chuck out all sorts of carcinogenic unpleasantness. It would stimulate more development focus on petrol units and hopefully shift both private and fleet buyers into petrol vehicles. This could only be a good thing for the health of the population, the environment and peoples quality of life in urban environments.

Of course, since everyone is still driving a car with a combustion engine in your scenario, you can chuck the part about the health of the population or environment.

[thatdude]

If anyone wants to save money, I have an old motorcycle worth about £600, does 55 mpg on a mixed run of town and motorway commuting, costs £70 tax per year and is dead easy to service

It's a far better prospect than my civic in terms of money saved, but I can't be arsed to uncover and unlock it every morning...


Anyway, with diesels - my wifes 120D auto is so far getting 42 mpg on her (mixed driving) commute (far worse around town). My civic (1.6 petrol, manual) is seeing around 45 on a mixed-driving commute (computer says 47 but it lies). I'm not convinced with diesel tech, and would like to off her diesel for a petrol (preferably japanese) but she won't have any of it. I drove it last week and I dont know if its the computerised throttle (govener?), the autobox or turbo lag but it's not responsive like my N/A civic (cable-operated throttle)

[braddo]

Mr SFJ said:

In Bristol, the buses are followed everywhere by a permanant trail of burnt tarmac and black exhaust smoke. I had the displeasure of following one for a couple of miles the other day and had to wind my window up and put the recirc on it was that bad.

LPG for things like buses, skip carrier lorries, refuse trucks etc would benefit, if the LPG was more accessible (can only talk for Bristol), I know of one LPG station and that, technically isn't in Bristol

The new Routemaster buses in London are really growing on me, mostly because they are hybrids and as a result are extremely quiet and have far lower exhaust emissions spewing out. If the majority of the london bus fleet goes hybrid I imagine it will make a big difference to roadside air quality, especially in places like Oxford Street.

Hopefully hybrid drivetrains for commercial vehicles can be reliable and cost effective so that they can be used on other heavy vehicles in urban areas.

[BGarside]

scherzkeks said:

Of course, since everyone is still driving a car with a combustion engine in your scenario, you can chuck the part about the health of the population or environment.

+1. If people were to drive less, and not use cars for ridiculously short local journeys and for sitting in city centre traffic jams, I'm sure a lot of the issues with urban pollution would just go away.

[Mr SFJ]

braddo said:

The new Routemaster buses in London are really growing on me, mostly because they are hybrids and as a result are extremely quiet and have far lower exhaust emissions spewing out. If the majority of the london bus fleet goes hybrid I imagine it will make a big difference to roadside air quality, especially in places like Oxford Street.

Hopefully hybrid drivetrains for commercial vehicles can be reliable and cost effective so that they can be used on other heavy vehicles in urban areas.

I agree totally. There is a medium and frankly, a fairly modern "warm hatch" does less damage per KM than a Heavy old bus belching out diesel fumes everywhere it goes. If they were to replace them with a hybrid system, the bus services would use less diesel, pay less tax(if they do) and then could pass the savings onto the customers.

[anonymous-user]

illmonkey said:

Right up here with

"Omg what a flash car, you must have loads of money"

"err, it cost a quarter of your stty eurobox astra"

I actually experienced this for the first time a couple of days ago, strolling into the work car park and a chap a level above me sees me open up the 540, "How on earth do you afford to run that?"

I couldn't be arsed to explain it cost me less than 4k and that the £300 a month I do in petrol was probably less than his finance payments on his Audi diesel