Modern cars WITHOUT inbuilt obsolescence
Discussion
I was just looking at the "things you hate about modern cars" thread and I noticed a large number of the comments are about the fact that modern cars are very difficult to repair if they go wrong.
Which made me wonder if there are any modern cars which are not like this.
Does anyone have any experience of modern cars (those with traction control, ESP, ABS, airbags and all those other things the classics don't have) which are easily DIYable requiring no special tools, excessive disassembly, or ridiculously expensive "replacement of entire unit" to put right when something breaks?
Which made me wonder if there are any modern cars which are not like this.
Does anyone have any experience of modern cars (those with traction control, ESP, ABS, airbags and all those other things the classics don't have) which are easily DIYable requiring no special tools, excessive disassembly, or ridiculously expensive "replacement of entire unit" to put right when something breaks?
I _think_ the last non-multiplexed mainstream new car is/was the Cit C1/Pug 107/Toyota Aygo. It's about to be replaced, and the press releases for the new one focus heavily on all the electronic rubbish.
Trouble is that so much guff is now or soon to be legally mandated - all the ECUs are available off-the-shelf in multiplexed electronic format only, so there's really no point in manufacturers not going that way. And, if the hardware's 90%+ in place, might as well add the last couple of bits and tick the software option boxes to enable all the showroom glitz.
Trouble is that so much guff is now or soon to be legally mandated - all the ECUs are available off-the-shelf in multiplexed electronic format only, so there's really no point in manufacturers not going that way. And, if the hardware's 90%+ in place, might as well add the last couple of bits and tick the software option boxes to enable all the showroom glitz.
coppice said:
Caterham Seven; modern in the sense of being able to buy a new one and being rather quick. Bit light on creature comforts or electronic safety nets...
Yep! Caterham 7 / Lotus 7, but don't forget proper Land Rovers, like Lotus Sevens, and Caterham Sevensthey are as relevant today, as the day the were first put on the roads. the only thing is, they cannot be described as modern, as Sevens have been going, for well over 50 years.
The question isn't really answerable - any part on any car can be replaced. The question of when a car goes "beyond economical repair" is mostly a factor of how heavily it depreciates, what the manufacturer chooses to charge for spare parts, and whether there's enough demand to make it worth someone's while to produce cheap pattern parts.
In other words, it's more a factor of the modern British used car market than the cars themselves.
Personally, I find modern electronic diagnostics extremely useful for running a car on a budget because it reduces or removes the need to randomly change parts until a problem goes away.
In other words, it's more a factor of the modern British used car market than the cars themselves.
Personally, I find modern electronic diagnostics extremely useful for running a car on a budget because it reduces or removes the need to randomly change parts until a problem goes away.
kambites said:
Personally, I find modern electronic diagnostics extremely useful for running a car on a budget because it reduces or removes the need to randomly change parts until a problem goes away.
If only it was true. Plenty of cars get parts thrown at them to try and fix a trouble light, some think the light just means a faulty component, replace that and it'll be fine - not always the case.The other issue is when the electronic systems are so interlinked replacing one part just isn't possible.. A friend can recall the non functioning phone kit that ended up costing over two grand, several ECUs and a boatload of firmware upgrades to get working - only one unit was defective but the replacement wasn't compatible with the existing items.
If the car had been a few years older it wouldn't have been economical.
I've always found it very easy to work on my BMW E39. Loads of room to work, build quality is very good and everything always seems to go back the same as it came out. Done loads of work to the interior, exterior, engine bay and suspension, jobs never seem to take longer than planned and nothing seems to break on disassembly which is amazing for a 14 year old car. Even stripping down the vanos and replacing the seals only took half a day.
Crafty_ said:
kambites said:
Personally, I find modern electronic diagnostics extremely useful for running a car on a budget because it reduces or removes the need to randomly change parts until a problem goes away.
If only it was true. Plenty of cars get parts thrown at them to try and fix a trouble light, some think the light just means a faulty component, replace that and it'll be fine - not always the case.The other issue is when the electronic systems are so interlinked replacing one part just isn't possible.. A friend can recall the non functioning phone kit that ended up costing over two grand, several ECUs and a boatload of firmware upgrades to get working - only one unit was defective but the replacement wasn't compatible with the existing items.
If the car had been a few years older it wouldn't have been economical.
With the phone, it sounds like he (or the garage) just bought the wrong part?
kambites said:
With the phone, it sounds like he (or the garage) just bought the wrong part?
Nope, went something like:Phone kit is knackered.
control unit comes unprogrammed.
original part no longer available, has been replaced by another (which should be fully compatible)
new unit loaded with software.
new unit doesn't work with the stereo/head unit software - this needs an upgrade.
Upgrade applied by CDs loaded in to the CD changer.
CD set ordered..
CD changer in this car is too old, doesn't load data discs.
New changer ordered.
Software loaded
Phone kit now talking to stereo
Stereo now not talking to centre dash unit, so no audio controls, heat/ventilation controls etc
New dash display unit control unit ordered
another round of software for all
Something like that. This is a main dealer, so had the manufacturer back up etc (not that it did them any good), each step was discovered as they went - none of this stuff is written down - the manufacturer assistance could only advise as each problem was discovered.
The car had been purchased by a trader at auction at below market value, it was a case of "if we just do this it'll work..." and so on. In the end the car had cost the trader near on his sticker price.
Currently he sees lots of problems with water ingress, chafing wiring looms and even poorly secured earth points (on a brand new car), all of which cause "interesting" problems that the computer can't tell you about. Anyone who asks him "what does the computer say" gets a spanner thrown at them I think
It sounds to me like it was the wrong part. Just because it's listed as a compatible replacement doesn't mean it is - the manufacturer screwed up their compatibility testing.
I obviously don't know which manufacturer it was, but I certainly wouldn't be buying another car made by them if I was him because it sounds like their engineering test process are appalling.
I obviously don't know which manufacturer it was, but I certainly wouldn't be buying another car made by them if I was him because it sounds like their engineering test process are appalling.
Parts compatibility or not, the point is that interlinking of systems increases complexity that no-one needs - the owner, dealers or manufacturer.
Having said that it is a headache. Customer comes in with an inoperative fuel gauge. Easy right ?
So the gauge is fine, wiring to the tank tested - all good. Sender is knackered then ? removed, tested and proven faulty. Happy days, off to parts.
The sender is the top plate of the cassette, so has outlets for fuel/returns/vent lines etc.
Part has been superseded, not once but a number of times..
The final part is available though, back on the bench, new part has no vent outlets.
Back to parts, check again, yes this is the right part.
Phone call to tech, "yes its the right part", "no its not" etc "send me a picture of the old one" and so on.
Anyway the whole charade lasted a month.
Far as the engineering goes - no he is not impressed in the slightest, the rest of the engineering is as bad too. Poor materials, poor engineering and a massive increase is faults, issues, recalls, field service bulletins etc. He would certainly not entertain spending his own hard earned on a car from the marque.
Having said that it is a headache. Customer comes in with an inoperative fuel gauge. Easy right ?
So the gauge is fine, wiring to the tank tested - all good. Sender is knackered then ? removed, tested and proven faulty. Happy days, off to parts.
The sender is the top plate of the cassette, so has outlets for fuel/returns/vent lines etc.
Part has been superseded, not once but a number of times..
The final part is available though, back on the bench, new part has no vent outlets.
Back to parts, check again, yes this is the right part.
Phone call to tech, "yes its the right part", "no its not" etc "send me a picture of the old one" and so on.
Anyway the whole charade lasted a month.
Far as the engineering goes - no he is not impressed in the slightest, the rest of the engineering is as bad too. Poor materials, poor engineering and a massive increase is faults, issues, recalls, field service bulletins etc. He would certainly not entertain spending his own hard earned on a car from the marque.
So this isn't an issue with the electronicisation (is that a word) of everything, but rather with manufacturers' tendency to supercede perfectly good parts with other almost compatible parts. I have to say I've never come across this problem; I've always been able to get the right part first time once I've known what I need, and it's always fitted fine.
It would be interesting to know how common this is - whether I've been lucky or you've/he's been unlucky.
It would be interesting to know how common this is - whether I've been lucky or you've/he's been unlucky.
Pan Pan said:
coppice said:
Caterham Seven; modern in the sense of being able to buy a new one and being rather quick. Bit light on creature comforts or electronic safety nets...
Yep! Caterham 7 / Lotus 7, but don't forget proper Land Rovers, like Lotus Sevens, and Caterham Sevensthey are as relevant today, as the day the were first put on the roads. the only thing is, they cannot be described as modern, as Sevens have been going, for well over 50 years.
Mine went from a classic looking 7 with a growly twin carb Ford to a Bike engined carbon fibre clad screamer. And when they finally invent the anti-grav drive I am sure I will re-fit one of them too
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