RE: Pie in the Sky
Monday 22nd July 2002
Pie in the Sky
Where are you going Darling?
Discussion
I read about this in the Sunday Times yesterday. When Mrs CarZee had come along with a broom and peeled me off the ceiling, I started to think about the implications.
This GPS tracking idea is a bit bothersome. It doesn't worry me too much because looking at the organisational problems such a scheme would face, the political implications and the track record of civil servants implementing anything mean that this really is pie in the sky...
What is by far and away the most important and concerning piece of information in that entire article is the fact that road expansion seems to have been completely ruled out. Presumably because of the vegetablairians and smellies..
So really we are totally and utterly screwed until there's a change of government.
I suggest you do as Nubbin did in the other thread ( www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=14049&f=23&h=0 )on this topic and fax your MP right now!
www.faxyourmp.com
oh and join the ABD if you haven't already - www.abd.org.uk
>> Edited by CarZee on Monday 22 July 10:12
This GPS tracking idea is a bit bothersome. It doesn't worry me too much because looking at the organisational problems such a scheme would face, the political implications and the track record of civil servants implementing anything mean that this really is pie in the sky...
What is by far and away the most important and concerning piece of information in that entire article is the fact that road expansion seems to have been completely ruled out. Presumably because of the vegetablairians and smellies..
So really we are totally and utterly screwed until there's a change of government.
I suggest you do as Nubbin did in the other thread ( www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=14049&f=23&h=0 )on this topic and fax your MP right now!
www.faxyourmp.com
oh and join the ABD if you haven't already - www.abd.org.uk
>> Edited by CarZee on Monday 22 July 10:12
Who would you elect?
We give the government billions of pounds every year to sort out things like hospitals, roads, police, etc. You should be surprised when the Government fails to provide these services and then asks for more money to improve them. When asked what they have done with all our money, the government responds by telling us that they have comissioned reports and set up focus groups. And what do these reports and focus groups tell us? They provide a crackpot idea which has no chance of being implemented, proving conclusivley that the country is run by complete muppets.
I'm trying to think of a service which the goverment provides which I am totally happy with. I haven't found one yet, mostly because they all have additional stealth taxes and still fail to work.
Grrr.
We give the government billions of pounds every year to sort out things like hospitals, roads, police, etc. You should be surprised when the Government fails to provide these services and then asks for more money to improve them. When asked what they have done with all our money, the government responds by telling us that they have comissioned reports and set up focus groups. And what do these reports and focus groups tell us? They provide a crackpot idea which has no chance of being implemented, proving conclusivley that the country is run by complete muppets.
I'm trying to think of a service which the goverment provides which I am totally happy with. I haven't found one yet, mostly because they all have additional stealth taxes and still fail to work.
Grrr.
Notwithstanding this incumbent Government's ability to piss money up a wall like it's about to go out of fashion, and worrying as this idea is, one question goes begging that nobody has given a plausible answer to yet:
Who will pay for this and how ?
As far as I can see, there's no easy and cheap way of doing this - it would cost an arm and a leg, and the ongoing support costs would be horrendous. Can you imagine the outcry if the Government pushed this through, only to have the Yanks switch off all the GPS satellites, or release "Son of GPS" or something ? It doesn't add up to me.
So the title says - this is simply Pie in the Sky. For a Government who have already pledged billions to health, transport and so forth over the next 5 years, there's no mention of this at all - and it will cost.
I'm up to be proven wrong, but this to smacks of journalistic sensationalism, to provide column inches. Chill out, chaps.
Who will pay for this and how ?
As far as I can see, there's no easy and cheap way of doing this - it would cost an arm and a leg, and the ongoing support costs would be horrendous. Can you imagine the outcry if the Government pushed this through, only to have the Yanks switch off all the GPS satellites, or release "Son of GPS" or something ? It doesn't add up to me.
So the title says - this is simply Pie in the Sky. For a Government who have already pledged billions to health, transport and so forth over the next 5 years, there's no mention of this at all - and it will cost.
I'm up to be proven wrong, but this to smacks of journalistic sensationalism, to provide column inches. Chill out, chaps.
Agree with Greg - the problems they'd have implementing it would be insurmountable for any civil service directed by either party.
It's the fact thay they simply will not build more roads that pisses me off - this is where our attention should be.
Anyone wanna go shooting road protestors?
It's the fact thay they simply will not build more roads that pisses me off - this is where our attention should be.
Anyone wanna go shooting road protestors?
Taking off my spelling hat and pulling on my conspiracy balaclava. Such a system would not be cheap, and would need to be maintained with a complete infrastructure to really make this workable. This would involve millions spent on consultants and prototyping, before producing a system that would cost the motorist a significant "contribution" to install on his vehicle, before the powers that be might grant us a small reduction on our taxation.
I admit that this seems a harsh view, but in the end, this system will cost us money, and help the big consultancies/manufacturers to bolster revenue.
Just my 2c worth, but I think this would be a good excuse to leave the country!
On an aside, if they managed to get the numberplate recognition systems operating fully, then this would not need a system in the car, but would still be a good way of getting us taxed out of existance.
C
I admit that this seems a harsh view, but in the end, this system will cost us money, and help the big consultancies/manufacturers to bolster revenue.
Just my 2c worth, but I think this would be a good excuse to leave the country!
On an aside, if they managed to get the numberplate recognition systems operating fully, then this would not need a system in the car, but would still be a good way of getting us taxed out of existance.
C
This just proves that Tony wants to retire early by ensuring that Labour don't get elected again. Also in the press today we read that Tony and co have failed totally in their commitment to reduce the number of bogus asylum seekers by 300,000.
According to their spokesman the failed by 'over 100%'
. Seems to me they failed maths as well.
Cheers,
JSG.
According to their spokesman the failed by 'over 100%'
. Seems to me they failed maths as well. Cheers,
JSG.
In case anyone on here wasn't aware - the EU (with Labour Backing) have voted to design a european satellite system - along similar lines to the american GPS system. for (partially) this reason - but also to demonstrate EU independence.
cost estimate is e3.0bn
Btw - the gps can't track you in a garage - or track you if you put a lead shield over the unit - so crims will still get round it ... makes no sense whatsoever
>> Edited by Gargamel on Monday 22 July 12:44
cost estimate is e3.0bn
Btw - the gps can't track you in a garage - or track you if you put a lead shield over the unit - so crims will still get round it ... makes no sense whatsoever
>> Edited by Gargamel on Monday 22 July 12:44
-- The European Union plans to go ahead with development of its own $2.4 billion to $3.2 billion global navigation satellite system (GNSS), partly out of concern about having to rely on the existing Pentagon-managed Global Positioning System.
Luc Tytgat, a staff member with the European Commission's Directorate of Transportation, described the U.S. GPS system as "a military solution and system," which "will not provide the level of service we need."
The European Union also believes that it can build a GPS-like system that provides greater accuracy than the U.S. system, developed by the Pentagon over the past decade at a cost of more than $10 billion, said Tytgat, speaking at the U.S. Coast Guard sponsored Civil GPS Service Interface Committee meeting here.
The European Union does plan to use the same signal structure and frequency bands as the U.S. GPS constellation, allowing existing GPS receivers and related technology to work with the new system.
And like the United States, the European Union plans to provide a basic level of service to all users worldwide at no cost. But, Tytgat added, users seeking greater accuracy and guarantees of availability will have to sign up for a higher level of service, which will be available on a "Pay TV-like basis."
The European Union plans to seek international partners, potentially including Australia, Canada and Japan in development of its "Galileo" satellite constellation, Tytgat said.
Tytgat did not rule out participation by the Russians, who developed their own GNSS at the height of the cold war. "We continue to talk to our Russian colleagues," Tytgat said. "We can learn a lot from the Russians about the technology."
Tytgat said the European Commission -- the policy-making arm of the European Union -- plans to finish an architecture definition phase for its GNSS this June, will make a financing decision by December 2000 and expects deployment of the 26 to 36 satellites in the Galileo constellation from 2005 to 2007. He said the European Union expects operation of Galileo to commence in 2008.
IN CASE ANY ONE DOUBTS WHAT I SAY
Luc Tytgat, a staff member with the European Commission's Directorate of Transportation, described the U.S. GPS system as "a military solution and system," which "will not provide the level of service we need."
The European Union also believes that it can build a GPS-like system that provides greater accuracy than the U.S. system, developed by the Pentagon over the past decade at a cost of more than $10 billion, said Tytgat, speaking at the U.S. Coast Guard sponsored Civil GPS Service Interface Committee meeting here.
The European Union does plan to use the same signal structure and frequency bands as the U.S. GPS constellation, allowing existing GPS receivers and related technology to work with the new system.
And like the United States, the European Union plans to provide a basic level of service to all users worldwide at no cost. But, Tytgat added, users seeking greater accuracy and guarantees of availability will have to sign up for a higher level of service, which will be available on a "Pay TV-like basis."
The European Union plans to seek international partners, potentially including Australia, Canada and Japan in development of its "Galileo" satellite constellation, Tytgat said.
Tytgat did not rule out participation by the Russians, who developed their own GNSS at the height of the cold war. "We continue to talk to our Russian colleagues," Tytgat said. "We can learn a lot from the Russians about the technology."
Tytgat said the European Commission -- the policy-making arm of the European Union -- plans to finish an architecture definition phase for its GNSS this June, will make a financing decision by December 2000 and expects deployment of the 26 to 36 satellites in the Galileo constellation from 2005 to 2007. He said the European Union expects operation of Galileo to commence in 2008.
IN CASE ANY ONE DOUBTS WHAT I SAY
So, presumably this is part of the government's integrated transport policy aiming to get us all out of our cars and onto public transport. What a clever and carefully co-ordinated plan! 
What's that you say? Train fares going up to prevent overcrowding? 
Oh dear - it would appear that the rsoles running this country can't even be bothered to be subtle with their greed anymore! 
Sounds like they'd better get a move on perfecting that teleporting device!
What's that you say? Train fares going up to prevent overcrowding? Oh dear - it would appear that the rsoles running this country can't even be bothered to be subtle with their greed anymore! Sounds like they'd better get a move on perfecting that teleporting device!
quote:
Luc Tytgat, a staff member with the European Commission's Directorate of Transportation, described the U.S. GPS system as "a military solution and system," which "will not provide the level of service we need."
The European Union also believes that it can build a GPS-like system that provides greater accuracy than the U.S. system, developed by the Pentagon over the past decade at a cost of more than $10 billion, said Tytgat, speaking at the U.S. Coast Guard sponsored Civil GPS Service Interface Committee meeting here.
This remind anyone else of the Nimrod? 20 years to develop at a cost of billions before being scrapped cos it was a bit crappy in favour of an existing american system.
... now did anyone else read in sprint about the £10 ticket to Oz, maybe we could get 'em to reinstate it... just thinking out loud
Dan
In a minority of one - I think it is about the best idea to solve the problem. Something similar already works in Singapore. I'm a complete petrol head, but even I can see we can't keep building more and more roads - its singularly failed so far hasn't it?
If it is revenue neutral - which I understand it will be then it will work. The devices should cost less than one years road tax, and maybe they will be given 'free' with the money raised going to pay for it. Its only a GPS receiver and smart card - not rocket science. There are companies out there already with similar technology such as traffic master, QuickTrack etc. They only tricky bit would be the billing system I would imagine, but thats solvable.
If it means it makes people think before making the average 2 or 3 mile journey, then great, maybe they will take the bus.
It will be fair for everyone. If you have two cars, you currently pay road tax twice - that wont happen under this system.
If you have a powerful car with a big engine, you won't be penalised for it.
If you live in the countryside you'll pay less than someone who refuses to take the train into london.
Its win all round.
Try and resist the obvious beardy, real ale, veggie 'arguements'
Cheers.
If it is revenue neutral - which I understand it will be then it will work. The devices should cost less than one years road tax, and maybe they will be given 'free' with the money raised going to pay for it. Its only a GPS receiver and smart card - not rocket science. There are companies out there already with similar technology such as traffic master, QuickTrack etc. They only tricky bit would be the billing system I would imagine, but thats solvable.
If it means it makes people think before making the average 2 or 3 mile journey, then great, maybe they will take the bus.
It will be fair for everyone. If you have two cars, you currently pay road tax twice - that wont happen under this system.
If you have a powerful car with a big engine, you won't be penalised for it.
If you live in the countryside you'll pay less than someone who refuses to take the train into london.
Its win all round.
Try and resist the obvious beardy, real ale, veggie 'arguements'
Cheers.
quote:The reason it has 'singularly failed' so far is simply because nowhere near enough roads (motorways particularly) have been built.
I'm a complete petrol head, but even I can see we can't keep building more and more roads - its singularly failed so far hasn't it?
Proportionately, we have significantly less road space than France and Germany.
The country is not, irrespective of what the greens would have you believe, completely overrun by tarmac. Even if some form of road pricing is introduced, it must be hand in hand with more roads.
quote:And here comes our first chance!
Anyone wanna go shooting road protestors?
www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=648954&in_review_text_id=619974
quote:There we are then... come on you protesting NIMBY dog on a string gimps !!! Let's have some..
'Swampy' fight to block new airports
Middle-England is poised to launch a wave of direct action against Government plans for a major expansion of airports in the South-East, campaigners warned today.
Hundreds of Londoners have vowed to “go to any lengths”, including civil disobedience and blocking runways, to fight the proposals of Transport Secretary Alistair Darling for a second Heathrow.
A consultation exercise will decide within the next four months whether to add a runway at Heathrow, create three new runways at Stansted or build a major new airport at Cliffe in north Kent.
But opponents, including politicians, environmentalists and hundreds of Londoners are planning a series of Swampy-style protests, demonstrations and sit-ins in a bid to block the plans.
John McDonnell, Labour MP for Hayes and Harlington, covering Heathrow, said: “We will use every form of activity necessary to draw people’s attention to this, using campaigns, petitions, demonstrations. We want the politicians involved to know what it’s like to have their own homes put at risk.”
Can you imagine.. PH counter-protests... glory!
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