RE: Motorsport on Monday: 19/05/14
RE: Motorsport on Monday: 19/05/14
Monday 19th May 2014

Motorsport on Monday: 19/05/14

Driver versatility - does it exist in modern motorsport?



Motorsport on Monday doesn't stretch to two wheels (we've got PH2 for that, including last weekend's MotoGP action), but special mention has to go to Marc Marquez.

Three MotoGP titles at 21!
Three MotoGP titles at 21!
He's 21 and already a three-time World Champion, including the youngest ever in the top class. Potential GOAT (Greatest Of All Time) status surely ensues, but his performance on Sunday got me wondering...

We mentioned a Mr S Loeb last week after yet another win for the Frenchman in WTCC. Could he currently be the world's best driver? Your vote on a stamped addressed envelope (or just in the comments) please.

Loeb is certainly one of the most versatile. A relative latecomer to full-time motorsport at 21, you've got to be a special kind of mental to want to go rallying with enough life experience by that point to tell you that hitting hard things hurts. Still, six years later he was in the WRC. That's quite a quick progression.

If rallying knew what was coming...
If rallying knew what was coming...
GOAT
Loeb was a Tarmac specialist and people didn't let him forget it. But he proved he could master the loose and become a complete rally driver, as his nine consecutive WRC titles attest, whether he was in the best car or not.

In the meantime, alongside rallying, his versatility shone through even stronger. I mean, driving an LMP1 car has got to be close to the polar opposite of a four-wheel drive hatchback on gravel, but Loeb mastered Le Mans.

He trained by learning the track on a PlayStation on his way to the circuit aboard a private jet (so he knew which way it went for his mandatory laps on the test day as a rookie), and in his second year he finished just that - second behind the lead Audi R10 diesel in 2006, back when the whispering diesels were the next new thing and the regulations therefore pretty much prohibited a petrol car winning the race.

Another of Loeb's side projects
Another of Loeb's side projects
The old switcheroo
He's also tried his hand at F1. A present from sponsors Red Bull for another WRC championship, he tested the 2008 RB4 and was eighth quickest of 17 drivers in Barcelona.

A victory at the X Games in Rallycross, plenty of wins in the FIA GT series, decent showings in the Porsche Supercup, absolute annihilation of the Pikes Peak record (alright, it was on his favourite surface and, by that point, a fully asphalt hill climb course) and, now, a brace of victories in the WTCC once more prove his versatility.

The mental edge in motorsport is massive - you have to know you can do it. Self-belief is a valuable commodity and Loeb has it by the bucketload, but he has the talent and conviction to make it count, too.

Don't forget about touring cars...
Don't forget about touring cars...
Then vs now
A trait he shares with many before him. Over the years there have been a gaggle of drivers with the same mental edge and commitment to the cause. There are many today that are the same, it's just a shame that commercial deals and sponsorship arrangements mean that we now no longer get to see the cross-code, multi-discipline action we did from pilots of yesteryear.

Gone are the days where the likes of Jim Clark would turn up to a weekend meet and drive the wheels off everything from Lotus-Ford Cortinas to Formula 2 and Formula 1 because he wanted to and could. Clark even slipped in a few Indy 500s and a couple of Le Mans appearances throughout his career with plenty of success.

Senna was another driver who dabbled. The 1984 season proved he could beat the best in identical machinery with his win at the Nurburgring at the wheel of a boggo Merc 190E 2.3-16, while stints in a Porsche 956 alongside Pescarolo and Stefan Johansson at the Nurburgring 1,000km, recording an eighth place finish, wasn't bad either.

And we all know the unearthly things Senna could do with a Formula 1 car...

... and the Porsche Supercup as well!
... and the Porsche Supercup as well!
ROC or crock?
The frustrating thing is, nowadays there are almost certainly drivers out there that have the ability to flick that internal switch, to chop and change between different types of machinery. But due to the aforementioned commercial pressures and media managers' fears of injury to their biggest money-spinners, fans are deprived the opportunity to witness a spectacle.

The Race of Champions is the closest we get, and running around a Mickey Mouse stadium course where you can't even get out of second gear means it's more crock instead of ROC from a fans' perspective.

We want to see drivers drive; fight each other in (roughly) equal machinery on fast, big balls tracks. That's why although we're getting some interesting action at the pointy end of the F1 field so far this year, the championship will ultimately be a disappointment. With five world champions in the mix, we want to see exactly who is the best and who has the most mettle.

Senna proved himself outside F1
Senna proved himself outside F1
Mercedes, if you're listening, how about diverting some of the W05's development budget to a fleet of C63 AMG Edition 507s with a few race mods (we're thinking an even louder pipe) and re-enact that famous Nurburgring race 30 years on? Maybe we'll find the new Senna?

You can put the cheque in the post...

[Le Mans and Saxo pics: LAT]

 

 





   

 

Author
Discussion

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

77 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
I do think Loeb is the best ever driver to grace this planet. Untouchable across all platforms and no doubt if he went into F1 younger he'd be a champion.

ogrimwood

22 posts

154 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
As always it depends, the true greats such as Senna, Loeb and older racers such as John Surtees can try their hand at most things and be quick. However for those who are good but not in that very elite group it doesn't always work out e.g. Kimi's secondment into the WRC.

dukebox9reg

1,692 posts

171 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
Wonder how Loeb would do in a Suzuki Liana...

ROC is pretty crap. Why cant they run it on a different world circuit every year? Was funny watching Colin go far far too fast most the time taking out the scenery in these ROC contests. RIP

smilo996

3,585 posts

193 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
Rossi is the best driver / rider of the current and previous generation. The only other rider to stand in front of some of his stats is Ago, however Ago achieved his wins almost exclusively with one manufacturer and on similar technology.
Rossi has made his name on 5 different capacities and two different forms of internal combustion engine and three manufactuers.
Clearly he proved his potential worth as an F1 drver with his tests in Ferrari's F1 car.
Held is own in rallying and the rallycross celeb races of recent years.

Rarely does a car driver perofma on a motorcycle, however the reverse is more often true.

smilo996

3,585 posts

193 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
Rossi is the best driver / rider of the current and previous generation. The only other rider to stand in front of some of his stats is Ago, however Ago achieved his wins almost exclusively with one manufacturer and on similar technology.
Rossi has made his name on 5 different capacities and two different forms of internal combustion engine and three manufactuers.
Clearly he proved his potential worth as an F1 drver with his tests in Ferrari's F1 car.
Held is own in rallying and the rallycross celeb races of recent years.

Rarely does a car driver perofma on a motorcycle, however the reverse is more often true.

smartie93

99 posts

188 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
smilo996 said:
Rossi is the best driver / rider of the current and previous generation. The only other rider to stand in front of some of his stats is Ago, however Ago achieved his wins almost exclusively with one manufacturer and on similar technology.
Rossi has made his name on 5 different capacities and two different forms of internal combustion engine and three manufactuers.
Clearly he proved his potential worth as an F1 drver with his tests in Ferrari's F1 car.
Held is own in rallying and the rallycross celeb races of recent years.

Rarely does a car driver perofma on a motorcycle, however the reverse is more often true.
That's completely understandable, compared to a bike a car has relatively few driver inputs. You don't have to control the car's roll and pitch moments with your own body weight for example. So I imagine for a rider a car gives them less to concentrate on, and so more brain power can be used for race craft smile

Frentzen

30 posts

198 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
One of my favourite drivers Juan Pablo Montoya has a pretty good all round record too....
F3000 Champ,CART Champ,Indy 500 Winner,Monaco GP Winner,Nascar winner(road),3 times Daytona 24 hrs winner...

Frentzen

30 posts

198 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
One of my favourite drivers Juan Pablo Montoya has a pretty good all round record too....
F3000 Champ,CART Champ,Indy 500 Winner,Monaco GP Winner,Nascar winner(road),3 times Daytona 24 hrs winner...

thepook

24 posts

187 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
I know he was mentioned in the second post, but how can Surtees not get a mention in the main article, particularly given that it starts with mention of bikes??

moribund

4,286 posts

237 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
dukebox9reg said:
Wonder how Loeb would do in a Suzuki Liana...
About time we found out, surely he'd be more interesting to interview than most of the "celebs" on TG.

Loeb is one of the few top sportsmen who seems to be genuinely nice guy too.

leghorn

48 posts

191 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
John Surtees

CraigyMc

18,208 posts

259 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
thepook said:
I know he was mentioned in the second post, but how can Surtees not get a mention in the main article, particularly given that it starts with mention of bikes??
I think it's largely because he's such a humble guy - people think he's sort of aloof, but he's actually sort of shy.
He was world champion in motorcyling and in F1, but not everyone knows it because he's not your typical alpha-male racing driver. He deserves better and more press than he gets, especially given that in his current advancing years he's still in the business giving opportunities to others (surtees foundation, Buckmore park etc). He's a class act.

In cars, Loeb has succeeded in everything I know of that he's tried. It'd be interesting to see how he got on in Nascar (cup) as I think that separates the men from the boys and it requires feel for driver feedback because of the telemetry limitations (there are few sensors on the car, to the extent that to measure G-forces while cornering you have to video a weight on the end of a calibrated rod for how much it bends, rather than just having strain gauges/load sensors). It's also a bit of a community sport in the way that guys pair up for drafting, which prohibits a single new driver from making everyone else look bad.

By the by, I'm not sure Senna was the fastest F1 guy ever although he's easily my favourite.
I suspect Stefan Bellof would be up there if people knew more about him, and if various documentaries didn't keep revising the popular understanding of history (eg. in the movie "Senna", the bit about the Monaco race where Senna was chasing down Prost in the rain - Bellof (in 3rd) was catching both of them faster than Senna was catching Prost, not to mention the fact that Senna's car was about to have suspension failure due to repeatedly smacking into the kerbs. If the race had run to the end (and had Bellof lived) the whole movie might have been called "Bellof" rather than "Senna"). They ended up DSQing the team at the end of the season anyway for some jape involving lead shot in the fuel tanks, c'est la vie.

DaveR

1,209 posts

307 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
Frentzen said:
One of my favourite drivers Juan Pablo Montoya has a pretty good all round record too....
F3000 Champ,CART Champ,Indy 500 Winner,Monaco GP Winner,Nascar winner(road),3 times Daytona 24 hrs winner...
Sorry, I'm not having Montoya. His driving seemed to reflect a certain 'always some else's fault' attitude problem which was confirmed when he effectively blamed Frank Williams for the fact that he was fat rather than doing something about it himself.


CraigyMc

18,208 posts

259 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
DaveR said:
... rather than doing something about it himself.
He did do something about it. He <eventually> moved to Nascar, where they don't care if you look like this while getting in your car:



Alex Langheck

835 posts

152 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
Versatility is almost frowned upon in modern Motorsport – whereas it was the norm; Vic Elford winning the Monte for Porsche then a week later winning the Daytona 24 Hours – he also finished the French GP that year – incredible.
Loeb is a phenomenon; and has won races/ events in 2 separate FiA World Championships; which very few people have done. Mark Webber has the chance now he’s in the FiA WEC to do similar. Of course Robert Kubica is trying to establish himself in the WRC – He has the pace, just not the event management.

Other drivers will drive in other categories mainly as a hobby; Romain Dumas drives anything with 4 wheels and an engine, usually a Porsche, Simon Pagenaud won a local rally in France driving a Peugeot 207 S2000, Guy Smith has done a few events in a Mk1 Escort.

Of course, very few of the F1 drivers are allowed to try other disciplines.

Reardy Mister

13,758 posts

245 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
4 wheels to a different sort of 4 wheels is versatility, sort of.

But take a look at 5th place here

Or ask John Surtees or Damon Hill.

When you know machines, you find guys are like this are as good on a bobcat or a road sweeper as they are in a car or on a bike. You just know machines.


chevronb37

6,472 posts

209 months

Monday 19th May 2014
quotequote all
I think the US is much better at supporting versatility than Europe - historically as well as today.

Look at guys like Andretti, Foyt and Jones. They generally survived the most dangerous branch of the sport - dirt ovals. They ended up finding success on sealed surfaces: banked; road and street. Donohue was able to win or be competitive in Trans Am, IROC, Indy, Can Am, F1, etc.! Incredible really but those guys thought nothing of it.

Today, the likes of Montoya, Franchitti, Bourdais, Pagenaud all start the season at Daytona for the 24 Hours. They'll do Grand Am, ALMS (albeit now existing as one) and IndyCar. Conor Daly decided to dovetail a GP3 campaign with the Indy 500!

Looking back 50 years, the top lads would do Tasman over the winter and then full seasons of F1, sports cars, touring cars, Can Am...whatever paid an appearance fee basically! Everyone was versatile because that was how it was in those days.

I think we've become accustomed to a motor racing culture of single discipline specialists but I truly believe the best will excel in anything. Best example I can give is Tom Kristensen, who I would assert as possibly the most gifted guy I've ever seen race. It's a boring anecdote I've recounted before but I'll persist...

He was piloting a Ford Galaxie in the St Mary's Trophy at Goodwood last year. While I was compiling my event report, I spent a bit of time studying the timing data from TSL. According to their speed trap, he was a full 10mph quicker through Fordwater than any other driver; including Jochen Mass (no less) in another Galaxie, which actually achieved a slightly high terminal speed on the Lavant Straight. Absolutely staggering stuff and you only need to watch him from the trackside to appreciate his total class. A winner in F3000, FWD BTCC, DTM, LMP and also historics.

Olaf t Viking

2 posts

142 months

Monday 19th May 2014
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How about Jacques Villeneuve? A champion in F1 and snowmobiles - even if the Chief Mechanic at BAR always referred to him as 'JFV!'

thatdude

2,660 posts

150 months

Tuesday 20th May 2014
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I do recall that back in the 80's and maybe even early 90's it wasnt uncommon to have grand prix racers competing across several classes in a day

canucklehead

416 posts

169 months

Tuesday 20th May 2014
quotequote all
of course, back in the "good old days" (TM), one of the reasons that race drivers drove anything and everything was that they weren't paid very well, and more starts meant more dosh. not saying it was the only reason, but it was a big reason.