My 997.1 C2S turns left!
Discussion
Pretty bold statement and I agree totally normal except... it does this with the wheel totally straight.
On the motorway at a steady 70mph, a dead ahead steering wheel provides a few degrees of left turn. This is true on windy/non windy days, with road camber/against road camber. Highly frustrating.
I've been to OPC and we've replaced basically the entire front end suspension including shocks, top mounts, coffin arms... They re geo'd the car and yet, after going back again for some other bits it was still turning left.
Back next time, the front PCCB callipers and pads were replaced as there was a wee bit of binding. This shouldn't really have caused an issue really as it was a constant turn rather than speed affected but to be sure...
After all this it's still turning left.
My current thinking:
1) There is something up at the back and it's crabbing slightly. This should show up in wear on the rears but it's not gone far enough to show - thoughts? Wouldn't a geo highlight that?
2) There is a bent part somewhere which is able to confuse the geo... a crack in the rack perhaps? Can't feel anything wobble in there but it does feel different which I put down to all the new bits.
3) Something super cunning that neither I nor the, frankly super helpful and understanding to date, OPC have come up with.
Anyone with any ideas/experience. What else could be bent/worn/about to catastrophically fail?
Other info on the car. Aside PCCB's it's also got the -20mm LSD option so no PASM hence it should be easier to find a mechanical issue.
Thanks for any ideas everyone.
Cheers,
sb
On the motorway at a steady 70mph, a dead ahead steering wheel provides a few degrees of left turn. This is true on windy/non windy days, with road camber/against road camber. Highly frustrating.
I've been to OPC and we've replaced basically the entire front end suspension including shocks, top mounts, coffin arms... They re geo'd the car and yet, after going back again for some other bits it was still turning left.
Back next time, the front PCCB callipers and pads were replaced as there was a wee bit of binding. This shouldn't really have caused an issue really as it was a constant turn rather than speed affected but to be sure...
After all this it's still turning left.
My current thinking:
1) There is something up at the back and it's crabbing slightly. This should show up in wear on the rears but it's not gone far enough to show - thoughts? Wouldn't a geo highlight that?
2) There is a bent part somewhere which is able to confuse the geo... a crack in the rack perhaps? Can't feel anything wobble in there but it does feel different which I put down to all the new bits.
3) Something super cunning that neither I nor the, frankly super helpful and understanding to date, OPC have come up with.
Anyone with any ideas/experience. What else could be bent/worn/about to catastrophically fail?
Other info on the car. Aside PCCB's it's also got the -20mm LSD option so no PASM hence it should be easier to find a mechanical issue.
Thanks for any ideas everyone.
Cheers,
sb
Not sure what's the complaint, exactly.
If by
"On the motorway at a steady 70mph, a dead ahead steering wheel provides a few degrees of left turn. This is true on windy/non windy days, with road camber/against road camber. Highly frustrating."
you are describing a situation in which you hold the steering wheel straight/level and the car wants to drift or wander off towards the left this can be something as simple as the steering wheel was not centered properly when the car was aligned.
It can also mean the car was not aligned properly. Did you get before and after printout of the car's alignment numbers?
I have to mention that there was another Porsche owner here a while (over a year I guess) who was having a heck of a time with his car. I do not recall the symptoms but one of the most likely reasons was bad alignment. He visited his OPC several times and was assured the alignment was ok. Finally, after everything failed he took the car to another shop and the alignment was checked and found out. Once adjusted properly the symptoms/untoward behavior were gone.
Also, I have to point out that it doesn't take oodles of mis-alignment to cause this. Just a bit of caster difference between the two front wheels can do it. Caster is a bit of a pain as there is not really any adjustment for this so if the caster is out (on one side) the tech can't adjust this out. If you had a printout of the alignment though you could see this.
There can be other causes too. Tire inflation is not right. Tires are not matched. One tire is a different hardness. Sometimes happens when one tire is replaced due to a puncture. Another thing to consider is if one tire is replaced if the other tire is worn too much (I think Porsche's limit is if the other tire is worn 30% or more from new) the tire diameters are dissimilar and who knows what odd car handling/behavior this can produce? Or more common a unidirectional tire is not mounted running in the right direction.
Hard to believe some steering/suspension component was bent/damaged or loose or in any way causing this for I would think an alignment would (should) discover this. However, if the alignment wasn't done...
If by
"On the motorway at a steady 70mph, a dead ahead steering wheel provides a few degrees of left turn. This is true on windy/non windy days, with road camber/against road camber. Highly frustrating."
you are describing a situation in which you hold the steering wheel straight/level and the car wants to drift or wander off towards the left this can be something as simple as the steering wheel was not centered properly when the car was aligned.
It can also mean the car was not aligned properly. Did you get before and after printout of the car's alignment numbers?
I have to mention that there was another Porsche owner here a while (over a year I guess) who was having a heck of a time with his car. I do not recall the symptoms but one of the most likely reasons was bad alignment. He visited his OPC several times and was assured the alignment was ok. Finally, after everything failed he took the car to another shop and the alignment was checked and found out. Once adjusted properly the symptoms/untoward behavior were gone.
Also, I have to point out that it doesn't take oodles of mis-alignment to cause this. Just a bit of caster difference between the two front wheels can do it. Caster is a bit of a pain as there is not really any adjustment for this so if the caster is out (on one side) the tech can't adjust this out. If you had a printout of the alignment though you could see this.
There can be other causes too. Tire inflation is not right. Tires are not matched. One tire is a different hardness. Sometimes happens when one tire is replaced due to a puncture. Another thing to consider is if one tire is replaced if the other tire is worn too much (I think Porsche's limit is if the other tire is worn 30% or more from new) the tire diameters are dissimilar and who knows what odd car handling/behavior this can produce? Or more common a unidirectional tire is not mounted running in the right direction.
Hard to believe some steering/suspension component was bent/damaged or loose or in any way causing this for I would think an alignment would (should) discover this. However, if the alignment wasn't done...
But turning left is 'so hot right now...'
Keggers: Tie rods are an excellent idea, thanks! They're not on the long list of replaced parts so definitely one to check.
samg46: Steering wheel on straight... obvious one as you say but I haven't checked that either so will ask. To be honest I'm not really sure how, or indeed why it would have been moved.
Rockster: Thanks for the insight! I agree that it sounds like a simple case of misaligned steering wheel when geo was done. I didn't get the before reading...
I did however check the pressures immediately as this was my first thought also, both fine, also the tyres are the same age, same wear and, in all ways appropriate, identical. They are MPS2's so unidirectional (am I wrong here?).
To clarify the problem in a different way, I have to hold about 3-4 degrees of right lock for the car to go in a straight line.
Caster alignment sounds a bit tricky. That there is no adjustment for the amount of positive/negative adjustment is understandable... I haven't hit anything except the odd pothole in my ownership so hoping not misaligned.
If good alignment should show up all issues that seems to be the next request.
Keggers: Tie rods are an excellent idea, thanks! They're not on the long list of replaced parts so definitely one to check.
samg46: Steering wheel on straight... obvious one as you say but I haven't checked that either so will ask. To be honest I'm not really sure how, or indeed why it would have been moved.
Rockster: Thanks for the insight! I agree that it sounds like a simple case of misaligned steering wheel when geo was done. I didn't get the before reading...
I did however check the pressures immediately as this was my first thought also, both fine, also the tyres are the same age, same wear and, in all ways appropriate, identical. They are MPS2's so unidirectional (am I wrong here?).
To clarify the problem in a different way, I have to hold about 3-4 degrees of right lock for the car to go in a straight line.
Caster alignment sounds a bit tricky. That there is no adjustment for the amount of positive/negative adjustment is understandable... I haven't hit anything except the odd pothole in my ownership so hoping not misaligned.
If good alignment should show up all issues that seems to be the next request.
Edited by sneakybear on Wednesday 28th May 17:12
I'd be tempted to try another alignment place first.
I had my Boxster done last year - first time round they couldn't do the rear as 2 of the adjusters had seized and it steered sideways until I could get the rear end all freed off. After that it was so much better all round
I'd be worrying if they aren't aligning it with the wheel straight...
I had my Boxster done last year - first time round they couldn't do the rear as 2 of the adjusters had seized and it steered sideways until I could get the rear end all freed off. After that it was so much better all round
I'd be worrying if they aren't aligning it with the wheel straight...
Chris Franklin's your man to sort this.
Centre Gravity - 01827 718800
Edited to add: There are alignment markings on the bottom of the steering column and the steering rack that have to line-up when the steering wheel's straight. If they don't, the wheel's not on its splines in the right place and will need to be moved. Essentially, once the steering is centred correctly, the rest of the geo (as Mr D correctly said above) is done to make all the wheels point forwards when the steering's in the middle!
Just to add a little about CG - Chris is one of, if not the best Porsche suspension guy in the UK. As well as sorting the basic issues with your car's steering as described above, he'll also custom-align the car to match your driving abilities and expectations. What you'll end-up with is the car responding and behaving in a way that exactly suits you. The before/after difference can be quite literally staggering (Chris has done 4 cars for me now - including a 997S-1 that was highly modified in the suspension department - so I'm speaking from experience) and the drive home will be one long, super-enjoyable, grin-inducing pleasure!
Centre Gravity - 01827 718800
Edited to add: There are alignment markings on the bottom of the steering column and the steering rack that have to line-up when the steering wheel's straight. If they don't, the wheel's not on its splines in the right place and will need to be moved. Essentially, once the steering is centred correctly, the rest of the geo (as Mr D correctly said above) is done to make all the wheels point forwards when the steering's in the middle!
Just to add a little about CG - Chris is one of, if not the best Porsche suspension guy in the UK. As well as sorting the basic issues with your car's steering as described above, he'll also custom-align the car to match your driving abilities and expectations. What you'll end-up with is the car responding and behaving in a way that exactly suits you. The before/after difference can be quite literally staggering (Chris has done 4 cars for me now - including a 997S-1 that was highly modified in the suspension department - so I'm speaking from experience) and the drive home will be one long, super-enjoyable, grin-inducing pleasure!
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Thursday 29th May 17:47
I had slightly similar issues with my 996C2 about ten years ago.
OPC were useless and was eventually directed to an alignment specialist in darkest Bootle. They had all the latest gear (Hunter?) and charged me about £50 to diagnose the fact that the castor on one side was different from the other. After long chat with owner agreed to follow his advice and they adjusted both sides but with slightly different values on each side (marginally within Porsche tolerances) aimed at compensating for the camber effect. They also corrected marginally out of tolerances on the rear suspension and the bill was silly small amount.
PM me for details if you like
HTH
P
OPC were useless and was eventually directed to an alignment specialist in darkest Bootle. They had all the latest gear (Hunter?) and charged me about £50 to diagnose the fact that the castor on one side was different from the other. After long chat with owner agreed to follow his advice and they adjusted both sides but with slightly different values on each side (marginally within Porsche tolerances) aimed at compensating for the camber effect. They also corrected marginally out of tolerances on the rear suspension and the bill was silly small amount.
PM me for details if you like
HTH
P
Suggest Brookspeed @ Eastleigh (just down M3 towards Southampton) - http://www.brookspeed.com/index.htm
Had wheel alignment set up to basic spec there a while ago. Did a good job and transformed it. Cost iro £80
Had wheel alignment set up to basic spec there a while ago. Did a good job and transformed it. Cost iro £80
sneakybear said:
I am in SW London - happy to travel as long as it's within reason. Any suggestions?
Another OPC quoted me 200 GBP to do a full alignment :-(
FastFred, PM on it's way.
Parr and JZM both seem to be people's favourites in the South East. Both have MASSIVE experience with the cars, both for street and competition.Another OPC quoted me 200 GBP to do a full alignment :-(
FastFred, PM on it's way.
Expect a proper geo/setup to cost several hundred pounds, plus the cost of replacement parts. (Coffin arms, strut tops, track rod ends, anti-roll bar drop links and rear dog bones are all likely to be worn out on a 997S.1. Don't be surprised if your dampers aren't operating anywhere near spec either). If you go for a cheap option, that's exactly what you'll get! Your car will forever be operating well below optimum and you'll never know what it's really capable of.
Thanks everyone. Will check out Parr & JZM and others more local. Keen to get a decent fix.
For info, I have just replaced the coffin arms, dampers, drop links and top mounts... plus a few other bits. The rear dog bones were NOT on the list and neither were track rod ends so they are likely to be required I agree.
As you suggested, the dampers were pretty shot hence why I started this whole replacement process and it's now not going in a straight line. Highly frustrating given the list of new parts as it was perfect before (damper notwithstanding)!
After all the work was hoping it'd be 'better' than it was :-(
As for what it's capable of... haha yeah. For all the 40k plus miles I've done in it, it's surprising how you get used to the car changing as it wears. I'd not consider myself a PH driving god either!
Thanks again for all the pointers everyone.
For info, I have just replaced the coffin arms, dampers, drop links and top mounts... plus a few other bits. The rear dog bones were NOT on the list and neither were track rod ends so they are likely to be required I agree.
As you suggested, the dampers were pretty shot hence why I started this whole replacement process and it's now not going in a straight line. Highly frustrating given the list of new parts as it was perfect before (damper notwithstanding)!
After all the work was hoping it'd be 'better' than it was :-(
As for what it's capable of... haha yeah. For all the 40k plus miles I've done in it, it's surprising how you get used to the car changing as it wears. I'd not consider myself a PH driving god either!
Thanks again for all the pointers everyone.
sneakybear said:
Thanks everyone. Will check out Parr & JZM and others more local. Keen to get a decent fix.
For info, I have just replaced the coffin arms, dampers, drop links and top mounts... plus a few other bits. The rear dog bones were NOT on the list and neither were track rod ends so they are likely to be required I agree.
As you suggested, the dampers were pretty shot hence why I started this whole replacement process and it's now not going in a straight line. Highly frustrating given the list of new parts as it was perfect before (damper notwithstanding)!
After all the work was hoping it'd be 'better' than it was :-(
As for what it's capable of... haha yeah. For all the 40k plus miles I've done in it, it's surprising how you get used to the car changing as it wears. I'd not consider myself a PH driving god either!
Thanks again for all the pointers everyone.
With all the new bits you've already had installed, your car should be very noticeably 'better' than it was. It just needs someone who really knows what they're doing to check the work that's already been done, to align everything properly, then optimise the whole setup for you. Any decent suspension specialist (you'll need one who has in-depth knowledge of the 997) will check there's nothing else needs replacing at the same time.For info, I have just replaced the coffin arms, dampers, drop links and top mounts... plus a few other bits. The rear dog bones were NOT on the list and neither were track rod ends so they are likely to be required I agree.
As you suggested, the dampers were pretty shot hence why I started this whole replacement process and it's now not going in a straight line. Highly frustrating given the list of new parts as it was perfect before (damper notwithstanding)!
After all the work was hoping it'd be 'better' than it was :-(
As for what it's capable of... haha yeah. For all the 40k plus miles I've done in it, it's surprising how you get used to the car changing as it wears. I'd not consider myself a PH driving god either!
Thanks again for all the pointers everyone.
Edited to add:
You're absolutely right about not really noticing how a car changes with time (as I found out yesterday). I knew my '7S.2 wasn't exactly at its best (it started to go downhill after a particularly savage day at Bruntingthorpe a year or so ago). Driving my girlfriend's Boxster for the first time in a few months, yesterday, threw into the sharpest of focus just how horrible the 997 has become. Compared to the Boxster, there's crazy amounts of bump-steer and power on/off steer. The steering's vague and notchy. The car's not turning-in properly etc. etc. (All this is in addition to the knocking from the front and rear over bumps that I was consciously aware of)!
Being able to compare my car to the Boxster made me realise just how much I'd adjusted to the 997's increasingly bad behaviour over time. It was such a wake-up call, that I've just booked the car in at Center Gravity for a full suspension refresh (and possibly some upgrades). I see what you mean about Chris being booked-up well ahead too - 18th July was the first available day!
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Friday 30th May 12:33
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff