Wheel and tyre woes - Advice?
Discussion
Ok, Ive been having ballache with my wheels for the past week or so and getting nowhere fast (or smoothly).
Swapped 18/8 wheels with 240/40/18 tyres for brand new wheels sized 19/8.5 with 255/35/19. Goodyear Eagle F1s on all of them.
Problems started at the first place, they sourced the tyres which came with stickers and looked to be straight out of the moulds. They fitted them, balanced them and I went away. Noticed vibration straight away.
Took them to another place to get this rectified as Ive had balancing issues from the first place before, they balanced the fronts and were adamant that the rears dont need balancing. I told them that was rubbish, but they wouldnt do it so I went on my way with two balanced front wheels. Vibration was a lot better but not entirely eliminated. Went back last night and asked them to balance the rears. They refused, gave me a load of reasons why rear wheels never vibrate, eventually relented and jacked the car up, only to straight away tell me the tyres had high spots. Demonstrated by standing a tyre iron next to the wheel and spinning it, "see how it touches there but not there?". At best, I could see a millimetric difference in heights, but at that point they just refused to balance them.
The best bit is, since they dropped it off the jack Im sure the vibrations are worse now.
Im at a loss of what to do. The wheels were £550 and the tyres over £700, so Im over a grand down now with nothing to show for it.
Are there any ways I can get some proper diagnosis on my wheels/tyres and try to find the root of the issue? Ive read about on car dynamic balancing, but everywhere Ive found charges well over £100 for the privilege.
Swapped 18/8 wheels with 240/40/18 tyres for brand new wheels sized 19/8.5 with 255/35/19. Goodyear Eagle F1s on all of them.
Problems started at the first place, they sourced the tyres which came with stickers and looked to be straight out of the moulds. They fitted them, balanced them and I went away. Noticed vibration straight away.
Took them to another place to get this rectified as Ive had balancing issues from the first place before, they balanced the fronts and were adamant that the rears dont need balancing. I told them that was rubbish, but they wouldnt do it so I went on my way with two balanced front wheels. Vibration was a lot better but not entirely eliminated. Went back last night and asked them to balance the rears. They refused, gave me a load of reasons why rear wheels never vibrate, eventually relented and jacked the car up, only to straight away tell me the tyres had high spots. Demonstrated by standing a tyre iron next to the wheel and spinning it, "see how it touches there but not there?". At best, I could see a millimetric difference in heights, but at that point they just refused to balance them.
The best bit is, since they dropped it off the jack Im sure the vibrations are worse now.
Im at a loss of what to do. The wheels were £550 and the tyres over £700, so Im over a grand down now with nothing to show for it.
Are there any ways I can get some proper diagnosis on my wheels/tyres and try to find the root of the issue? Ive read about on car dynamic balancing, but everywhere Ive found charges well over £100 for the privilege.
They do need spigot rings and they have been fitted.
If anyone knows a good place to get the on car balancing checked that covers the north west that'd be appreciated. Even better if they do callouts.
Edit - regarding the high spots, I just find it very hard to imagine that all four brand new tyres are defective, as this tyre place is telling me
If anyone knows a good place to get the on car balancing checked that covers the north west that'd be appreciated. Even better if they do callouts.
Edit - regarding the high spots, I just find it very hard to imagine that all four brand new tyres are defective, as this tyre place is telling me
Edited by Falsey on Tuesday 3rd June 11:06
kapiteinlangzaam said:
'rear wheels not causing vibration' is just downright b
ks, so I suggest you find yourself a new balancing garage as a first bet.
This!ks, so I suggest you find yourself a new balancing garage as a first bet.Before condemning the tyres though check the run-out on the wheels themselves. Additionally, get the tyres removed and reseated.
I'm suspecting poorly stored tyres and/or chack-handed fitting.
Oh, and anyone who thinks rear wheels should not be balanced is an incompetent ignoramous who I would not trust to put my rubbish out.
It's north-east rather than north-west but I use Tam Tyres in Gateshead, which has a Hunter road force balancer. I reckon your problem is more likely to be resolved with the wheels off, rather than on, the car, as you did not have a problem before you changed the wheels.
You may also want to breeze through this thread
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
You may also want to breeze through this thread
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
r11co said:
This!
Before condemning the tyres though check the run-out on the wheels themselves. Additionally, get the tyres removed and reseated.
I'm suspecting poorly stored tyres and/or chack-handed fitting.
Oh, and anyone who thinks rear wheels should not be balanced is an incompetent ignoramous who I would not trust to put my rubbish out.
Mate of mine had a 309 (someone had to) and the tail was wagging the dog. One rear unbalanced wheel, had the whole car flapping about at high speeds.Before condemning the tyres though check the run-out on the wheels themselves. Additionally, get the tyres removed and reseated.
I'm suspecting poorly stored tyres and/or chack-handed fitting.
Oh, and anyone who thinks rear wheels should not be balanced is an incompetent ignoramous who I would not trust to put my rubbish out.
Just spent the evening swapping tyres around. Put two balanced old ones on the rear and took it for a test, back seemed to feel a little better, but still vibration kicking in around 60+.
Had someone suggest a tyre place in chester that is apparently pretty good (central tyre) and they have one of the high tech balancers. Will pay them a visit this weekend in the hope they can help.
If not - I dont know what Ill do. Probably try my luck returning both the wheels and tyres..
Had someone suggest a tyre place in chester that is apparently pretty good (central tyre) and they have one of the high tech balancers. Will pay them a visit this weekend in the hope they can help.
If not - I dont know what Ill do. Probably try my luck returning both the wheels and tyres..
An update on this continuing misery.
I had a full alignment, camber and track adjustment done this weekend to correct any issues with geometries that could be exacerbating the issue, which it needed. I hit a pothole a month or so back so the car pulled a little to the left, now its straight and true. Great.
Had the wheels fully checked over and rebalanced along with a complete suspension and hub health check (not cheap), and the results are that my car is fine, but all of the tyres have run out (out of round). I think the culprit here is either dodgy tyre supplier or bad fitting damaging the tyres. I find it hard to believe that four brand new Goodyear tyres would come from the factory with defects.
I had the two best tyres placed on the front and was advised that any further vibration would be caused by the out of round tyres. First impressions seemed good, fine at 40, 50, 60. Then at around 70 the vibration kicked in worse than before. Then it cleared. Then it happened again. Im assuming this is because the high points on the wheels were getting in and out of sync with eachother or something similar.
Now, I need a next step. Part of me just wants to get these wheels off now and get rid to recover at least part of what its cost me so far, but the other wants to solve it. I have contacted Goodyear UK who gave me a lot of advice that is only useful if I have all of the tools from a tyre shop myself or a saintly tech who will do the work for free. Ive done a bit of research which has given me an idea; tyre shaving.
tl;dr - Can tyre shaving correct radial run out issues?
I had a full alignment, camber and track adjustment done this weekend to correct any issues with geometries that could be exacerbating the issue, which it needed. I hit a pothole a month or so back so the car pulled a little to the left, now its straight and true. Great.
Had the wheels fully checked over and rebalanced along with a complete suspension and hub health check (not cheap), and the results are that my car is fine, but all of the tyres have run out (out of round). I think the culprit here is either dodgy tyre supplier or bad fitting damaging the tyres. I find it hard to believe that four brand new Goodyear tyres would come from the factory with defects.
I had the two best tyres placed on the front and was advised that any further vibration would be caused by the out of round tyres. First impressions seemed good, fine at 40, 50, 60. Then at around 70 the vibration kicked in worse than before. Then it cleared. Then it happened again. Im assuming this is because the high points on the wheels were getting in and out of sync with eachother or something similar.
Now, I need a next step. Part of me just wants to get these wheels off now and get rid to recover at least part of what its cost me so far, but the other wants to solve it. I have contacted Goodyear UK who gave me a lot of advice that is only useful if I have all of the tools from a tyre shop myself or a saintly tech who will do the work for free. Ive done a bit of research which has given me an idea; tyre shaving.
tl;dr - Can tyre shaving correct radial run out issues?
Falsey said:
tl;dr - Can tyre shaving correct radial run out issues?
When I was drfting I didn't get wheels balance - no point if they are going to be smoke in 5 minutes. Weirdly balance issues rarely lasted past the first bit of decent wheel spin.So maybe do a little burnout, like shaving, only free.
Although after that the supplying garage will refuse to do anything at all about the tyres they supplied which seem to be wrong.
kapiteinlangzaam said:
No idea about tyre shaving, but one thing that strikes me is that once you have done that any chance of assistance from Goodyear will be out of the window.
Did you get some kind of report stating the tyre defects? My next course of action would be talking to Goodyear... presenting all the facts with the original receipts etc.
Goodyear will not support me once the tyres are past 10% wear, which obviously the shaving will do. The risk/reward there being that if it does solve the issues then thats no problem, if it doesnt, Im deeper down sDid you get some kind of report stating the tyre defects? My next course of action would be talking to Goodyear... presenting all the facts with the original receipts etc.
t creek.I did actually get a report stating that the car is healthy and all the tyres have run out that could be causing vibration.
Captain Muppet said:
When I was drfting I didn't get wheels balance - no point if they are going to be smoke in 5 minutes. Weirdly balance issues rarely lasted past the first bit of decent wheel spin.
So maybe do a little burnout, like shaving, only free.
Although after that the supplying garage will refuse to do anything at all about the tyres they supplied which seem to be wrong.
Its an idea, but I rarely get the opportunity to rip hektik skidz in the Scirocco on the commute.So maybe do a little burnout, like shaving, only free.
Although after that the supplying garage will refuse to do anything at all about the tyres they supplied which seem to be wrong.
TA14 said:
What about this?
I believe the wheels are ok, but I cant be certain. I have no method to check them without the equipment to detyre and retyre them, and presumably a precision gauge to measure radius as it rotates.jon- said:
Depending on where you sourced the wheels from i'd be inclined to blame them... chinese copies are rarely round.
I could try taking them back to the tyre fitters and kicking up a fuss, but I am not hopeful about positive results. The best way I see it going is I end up with a refund and no tyres, which would suit me at the moment - as I frankly dont trust them at all to source me adequate replacements.
Is this vibration in the car or the steering wheel?
Most unbalance gives a wheel wobble in the steering wheel, caused by the front wheel balance. This was a major problem many years back. It was so bad in things like VW beetles that they fitted a shock absorber, [called a steering damper] to the tie rod to stop it. Hydraulic power steering has a similar damping effect to a steering damper, so modern cars are rarely affected.
Electric steering may be affected, but I've not yet found that.
If the vibration is in the whole car, it is coming from the rear. Independent rear ends would be much more likely to suffer from this, particularly with front drive. A differential especially a live rear axle has a high dampening effect on vibration.
I have TR7s & an 8. The 7 did not have power steering, & I replaced the 8s with a 7s rack, as I don't like power steering. Unfortunately due to the design of the front end, these Triumphs are particularly susceptible to unbalance wheel wobble in the steering, occurring at 95 to about 103 KM/H.
Previously I had a tyre shop do an on car balance of the front wheels for me when ever the wheel wobble started to become noticeable. This always fixed the problem, & would be required between every 5,000 to 10,000 kilometers, as the tyres wore. I was charged about $50 for both wheels.
When the balancer operator retired they stopped doing on car, & the couple of other stores doing it also stopped as staff left, or their balancers died. I was becoming less happy with my Triumphs with annoying wheel wobbles developing.
Fortunately I found a tyre shop with a balancer they were not using. I bought their machine for $500, a great price when the new price is about $14,000.
The balancer requires 3 phase power so I bought a 10 KVA gen set to drive it, & supply my farm with power when weather takes the power out. Balancing is not very hard to do, & a couple of my friends with cars with wire wheels now come & use mine, after watching an internet tutorial.
Yes it was expensive, but I can now enjoy my Triumphs with silky smooth steering.
Believe me, on car balancing is well worth the expense, if you can find someone offering it.
Most unbalance gives a wheel wobble in the steering wheel, caused by the front wheel balance. This was a major problem many years back. It was so bad in things like VW beetles that they fitted a shock absorber, [called a steering damper] to the tie rod to stop it. Hydraulic power steering has a similar damping effect to a steering damper, so modern cars are rarely affected.
Electric steering may be affected, but I've not yet found that.
If the vibration is in the whole car, it is coming from the rear. Independent rear ends would be much more likely to suffer from this, particularly with front drive. A differential especially a live rear axle has a high dampening effect on vibration.
I have TR7s & an 8. The 7 did not have power steering, & I replaced the 8s with a 7s rack, as I don't like power steering. Unfortunately due to the design of the front end, these Triumphs are particularly susceptible to unbalance wheel wobble in the steering, occurring at 95 to about 103 KM/H.
Previously I had a tyre shop do an on car balance of the front wheels for me when ever the wheel wobble started to become noticeable. This always fixed the problem, & would be required between every 5,000 to 10,000 kilometers, as the tyres wore. I was charged about $50 for both wheels.
When the balancer operator retired they stopped doing on car, & the couple of other stores doing it also stopped as staff left, or their balancers died. I was becoming less happy with my Triumphs with annoying wheel wobbles developing.
Fortunately I found a tyre shop with a balancer they were not using. I bought their machine for $500, a great price when the new price is about $14,000.
The balancer requires 3 phase power so I bought a 10 KVA gen set to drive it, & supply my farm with power when weather takes the power out. Balancing is not very hard to do, & a couple of my friends with cars with wire wheels now come & use mine, after watching an internet tutorial.
Yes it was expensive, but I can now enjoy my Triumphs with silky smooth steering.
Believe me, on car balancing is well worth the expense, if you can find someone offering it.
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