Recording Studio / Production Room in Apartment...
Discussion
Question. If you are not actually recording, but just mixing/composing... how loud do you need it to be? I have (stupidly expensive) near field monitors that are about 5 feet from each ear, and the last thing I want is to have them shouting at me all day.
A mate of mine spent £30k on a floating floor, but he records drums... so had to.
A mate of mine spent £30k on a floating floor, but he records drums... so had to.
There will be bits of recording; I have a Roland e-drum kit (blasphemy!) for drums but I have some session stuff happen from time to time like sax and guitars / bass mic'd amps - as well, I agree with you; fr the most part; there actually won't be loud music; I suppose I just want to get it as right as can be and perhaps my plans are a tad overkill but; better safe than sorry. My main concern is the sub bass nature of some of my stuff. Not much I can do about that other than mass and decoupling as best I can without going the whole floating room route.
I feel like; I, at the VERY least, need a wall up separating the lounge and kitchen; both for 'vibe' (proper seperate room) and also as a barrier to the one and only neighbouring flat. Perhaps the rest is overkill?
I feel like; I, at the VERY least, need a wall up separating the lounge and kitchen; both for 'vibe' (proper seperate room) and also as a barrier to the one and only neighbouring flat. Perhaps the rest is overkill?
So will you be making an isolation room in that space for musos? If so, that's the bit you need to seriously soundproof... with a triple glazed door/window so you can see each other? (It's what I did.. though I have no neighbours, so it wasn't so vital - just didn't want to hear them, except through speakers).
High LDN, sounds like you're serious about getting things right. Have a look at this article about dipole subwoofers http://www.hifizine.com/2011/09/prototyping-dipole... . Dipoles could be the perfect solution for you; their radiation pattern is likely to suit your application by causing fewer sound transmission issues than any monopole sub.
Dipole bass Sound quality is felt by many to be state of the art and better than all the alternatives too.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/celestion-syste...
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm
http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/Product_Reviews_5....
Dipole bass Sound quality is felt by many to be state of the art and better than all the alternatives too.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/celestion-syste...
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/woofer.htm
http://www.gradient.fi/Gradient/Product_Reviews_5....
Crackie; thank you for the links: that's my evening reading matter sorted! I'll have a read through.
Carter; yes I am looking at building an ISO booth / room or also considering a corner / diamond shape 'platinum' series room from vocalbooth.com / Dophin Music (UK).
My main issue though; is mainly to feel free in the room: know that I've got a well sorted room both acoustically but also sound-proof wise so as to not bother anyone else in the building. I have specifically gone for an apartment that has no one beneath / above or to any side but there will be one neighbour behind the kitchen. I suppose I want to know they are not hearing any low dull throb of bass (oooh arrrr missus!)
I want to do the floating walls because I see it can make a big difference to both the acoustic nature of the room but also to the sound proofing; if they are somewhat decoupled from the main fabric of the building at least...
Carter; yes I am looking at building an ISO booth / room or also considering a corner / diamond shape 'platinum' series room from vocalbooth.com / Dophin Music (UK).
My main issue though; is mainly to feel free in the room: know that I've got a well sorted room both acoustically but also sound-proof wise so as to not bother anyone else in the building. I have specifically gone for an apartment that has no one beneath / above or to any side but there will be one neighbour behind the kitchen. I suppose I want to know they are not hearing any low dull throb of bass (oooh arrrr missus!)
I want to do the floating walls because I see it can make a big difference to both the acoustic nature of the room but also to the sound proofing; if they are somewhat decoupled from the main fabric of the building at least...
The only real way to control sound transfer in a building is by adding mass. If the conversion has been done you run the risk of overloading the structure if you do too much. Rock wool lined partitions will have very little effect, sound block plasterboard would help but is seriously heavy.
Also worth mentioning you'll be contravening planning permission if the unit is intended as an apartment, so if any neighbours are bothered and report you, you'll be in for some attention from the local council and probably court if you persist.
Also worth mentioning you'll be contravening planning permission if the unit is intended as an apartment, so if any neighbours are bothered and report you, you'll be in for some attention from the local council and probably court if you persist.
Yes, this won't be a commercial studio but I want to get it as right as can be from the start.
As mentioned: mass is one of the only ways to stop low frequencies and so I'm unsure how I'll be able to do that for the wall I plan on putting up; splitting the lounge and kitchen... I maybe plan on two walls with a foot in between and rock wool; it's the best I can do I feel.
I am also looking at different flooring systems for a floating floor that won't be connected directly to any of the walls... there seems to be hundreds of floor systems that claim this and that so I'm trying to get passed the marketing spiel and see what might actually work.
As mentioned: mass is one of the only ways to stop low frequencies and so I'm unsure how I'll be able to do that for the wall I plan on putting up; splitting the lounge and kitchen... I maybe plan on two walls with a foot in between and rock wool; it's the best I can do I feel.
I am also looking at different flooring systems for a floating floor that won't be connected directly to any of the walls... there seems to be hundreds of floor systems that claim this and that so I'm trying to get passed the marketing spiel and see what might actually work.
LDN said:
As mentioned: mass is one of the only ways to stop low frequencies and so I'm unsure how I'll be able to do that for the wall I plan on putting up.
I am also looking at different flooring systems for a floating floor that won't be connected directly to any of the walls... there seems to be hundreds of floor systems that claim this and that so I'm trying to get passed the marketing spiel and see what might actually work.
To summarise, a conventional monopole box speaker behaves as a pressure source with an omni directional radiation pattern. Consequently a monopole sub or conventional pair of monopole monitors radiates sound equally in every direction, at bass frequencies. This Omni directional output couples to the room modes and standing waves very well; this makes it very difficult to get clear and uniform bass throughout the room and it also means that much higher energy is put into the rooms walls and subsequent building structure than with dipoles.
Dipolar speakers are sources with a figure–8 polar response; they excite fewer room mode than monopolar speakers because the cardoid behaviour of dipoles means that their output cancels to the sides (and vertically to a degree). The bottom line is that you hear stunningly good bass when sat/stood in front of them and imho the LF sound transmission issue will be minimal.
I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet but, do you really need a sub?
I find in untreated, home studios, a sub overpowers the mix and if anything does more harm than good.
A decent set of monitors with a large enough driver should suffice. As a result, you can keep levels sensible, and not annoy the neighbours.
I find in untreated, home studios, a sub overpowers the mix and if anything does more harm than good.
A decent set of monitors with a large enough driver should suffice. As a result, you can keep levels sensible, and not annoy the neighbours.
Edited by Jazzy Jefferson on Friday 6th June 09:36
Hi Crackie, I did read up on it all and it's interesting especially as I'd not come across it before. Given that I already have a Sub that I am familiar with; would I be able to somehow get the Dipolar effect with it? Or do Diploar subs need to be built from the ground up??
Regarding the speakers: I use Focal CMS 65's and a matched CMS Sub. The standard Focals go low, but I need a really clear picture of what is happening down in the low low end and TBH, adding the sub was one of the best things I ever did; I could suddenly hear what was happening way way down there in full glorious detail. Although the Focals were a revelation, in general terms; I def' need the sub as part of the equation, unfortunately. The CMS Sub can be adjusted in many ways ; so as to tune it to the room and knock down problem frequencies. I've become so used to it now, that when I bypass it; I feel like I'm shooting blind.
I'm starting on an album and getting my current studio out of the house; I have looked and looked and looked for a suitable space and I've been all over; I found this old Mill and the vibe is just so good; with other creatives working in and around it - and this huge duplex was available for sale in there. I would never have considered it ideal for a studio but with no-one below, above or to three of the four sides... I felt like I could get away with it (maybe only just); it's only the one neighbouring apartment I want to 'seal off' as best I can and there will be a room between I and them; (the kitchen) once I put the wall up. But as others have said; too much mass will be a problem due to the floor not being able to hold it; and so I need to look at the next best thing (never ideal).
I feel like, at a minimum and partly due to acoustics as much as sound proofing; I'll be putting up the partition wall and making it as mass'y as possible - with double doors; and also, floating walls on all the other walls as well as another pane of glass over the velux windows. And then lastly, some kind of floating floor - or maybe just acoustic tiles under laminate at a minimum.
Regarding the speakers: I use Focal CMS 65's and a matched CMS Sub. The standard Focals go low, but I need a really clear picture of what is happening down in the low low end and TBH, adding the sub was one of the best things I ever did; I could suddenly hear what was happening way way down there in full glorious detail. Although the Focals were a revelation, in general terms; I def' need the sub as part of the equation, unfortunately. The CMS Sub can be adjusted in many ways ; so as to tune it to the room and knock down problem frequencies. I've become so used to it now, that when I bypass it; I feel like I'm shooting blind.
I'm starting on an album and getting my current studio out of the house; I have looked and looked and looked for a suitable space and I've been all over; I found this old Mill and the vibe is just so good; with other creatives working in and around it - and this huge duplex was available for sale in there. I would never have considered it ideal for a studio but with no-one below, above or to three of the four sides... I felt like I could get away with it (maybe only just); it's only the one neighbouring apartment I want to 'seal off' as best I can and there will be a room between I and them; (the kitchen) once I put the wall up. But as others have said; too much mass will be a problem due to the floor not being able to hold it; and so I need to look at the next best thing (never ideal).
I feel like, at a minimum and partly due to acoustics as much as sound proofing; I'll be putting up the partition wall and making it as mass'y as possible - with double doors; and also, floating walls on all the other walls as well as another pane of glass over the velux windows. And then lastly, some kind of floating floor - or maybe just acoustic tiles under laminate at a minimum.
LDN said:
I def' need the sub as part of the equation
Why?Genuine question. You definitely need it for what? Hearing low end yes. I get that. But how does that help everyone else?
I often think the people who listen to my music do not have a system capable of replicating it in the same way. Ipod in-ears don't do bass
I would say some of the key things to do here are:
Plenty of reading on room design and the appropriate measures - stuffing a room full of treatment doesnt necessarily solve the issue. You need the right treatment.
Measuring your room to ensure the treatment you install does not create/compound problems, especially for mixdown/mastering.
For isolation you are looking at an ideal scenario of a room within a room - or as close as you can get.
For bass music I would argue a sub is essential as you need to be able to understand what your sub and low bass sound like - monitors will not be able to replicate this - but you need to ensure the balance is right and does not cause poor mixdowns.
Out of interest, what music do you produce (genre, soundcloud link?)
Plenty of reading on room design and the appropriate measures - stuffing a room full of treatment doesnt necessarily solve the issue. You need the right treatment.
Measuring your room to ensure the treatment you install does not create/compound problems, especially for mixdown/mastering.
For isolation you are looking at an ideal scenario of a room within a room - or as close as you can get.
For bass music I would argue a sub is essential as you need to be able to understand what your sub and low bass sound like - monitors will not be able to replicate this - but you need to ensure the balance is right and does not cause poor mixdowns.
Out of interest, what music do you produce (genre, soundcloud link?)
Jazzy Jefferson said:
LDN said:
I def' need the sub as part of the equation
Why?Genuine question. You definitely need it for what? Hearing low end yes. I get that. But how does that help everyone else?
I often think the people who listen to my music do not have a system capable of replicating it in the same way. Ipod in-ears don't do bass
Also to add - if bass transmission is going to be the key issue, look into bass traps - remember the type and positioning will be dependent on the shape of the room and orientation of the system.
Bear in mind if you pack a room out with isolation etc then it's going to get very warm in there...
Bear in mind if you pack a room out with isolation etc then it's going to get very warm in there...
Jazzy Jefferson said:
Why?
Genuine question. You definitely need it for what? Hearing low end yes. I get that. But how does that help everyone else?
I often think the people who listen to my music do not have a system capable of replicating it in the same way. Ipod in-ears don't do bass
Some of this stuff will end up on large systems / club systems and the bass is a massive part of the equation on the stuff I'm doing.Genuine question. You definitely need it for what? Hearing low end yes. I get that. But how does that help everyone else?
I often think the people who listen to my music do not have a system capable of replicating it in the same way. Ipod in-ears don't do bass
As well, those god awful Beats headphones that everyone uses nowadays DO do bass; and in large amounts... as large as large can be on cans.
Hearing the top end in full detail is a must and I feel the same way about the low end. I don't know of any monitors that go low enough without a sub as part of the setup.
The Focals I have have been a revelation and they go low-ish. I will often bypass the sub via a footswitch to hear just through the main monitors but the sub has been brilliant.
It IS important to consider what music sounds like on ipod/laptop etc speaker. With some genres, cutting away the sub and anything below 100Hz can comepletely decimate the objective of the tune.
I have a hi pass filter on my master buss I can toggle periodically thoughout the production and mixdown to reference how the track might sound. In some cases I have had to add in an additional bass, or synth etc to fill the space between the mids and the (disappearing) bass.
I have a hi pass filter on my master buss I can toggle periodically thoughout the production and mixdown to reference how the track might sound. In some cases I have had to add in an additional bass, or synth etc to fill the space between the mids and the (disappearing) bass.
sparks85 said:
It IS important to consider what music sounds like on ipod/laptop etc speaker. With some genres, cutting away the sub and anything below 100Hz can comepletely decimate the objective of the tune.
I have a hi pass filter on my master buss I can toggle periodically thoughout the production and mixdown to reference how the track might sound. In some cases I have had to add in an additional bass, or synth etc to fill the space between the mids and the (disappearing) bass.
This is a good idea; as well; I have a stereo width plugin on the master which I have set to zero width (mono) that I toggle on and off sometimes to check mono compatibility.I have a hi pass filter on my master buss I can toggle periodically thoughout the production and mixdown to reference how the track might sound. In some cases I have had to add in an additional bass, or synth etc to fill the space between the mids and the (disappearing) bass.
With regard the laptop thing; I have an out from my D/A converter going Line-In into my Laptop Mic socket. In Windows you can often change the Mic-In to Line-In. I then simply mute my main speakers and unmute my laptop and hey presto; I can hear my session right out of my Laptop speakers. As much as getting a sub was helpful; being able to quickly hear stuff through my laptop on the fly and make adjustments / go back to main the main speakers etc - has been a godsend. Like you say; sub bass disappears on laptop speakers and so you need a higher frequency either mimicking the sub - or something at least lower down that is audible at least; so that it doesn't sound empty.
On occassion I have used MaxxBass which mimics (in addition to) the bassline an octave higher (or what ever you set).
There is also another plugin - Redline 112db http://www.112db.com/redline/monitor/ which lets you simulate different rooms conditions - also useful if you are on headphones and want to mimic stereo speakers etc.
I agree, referencing on different headphones, hifi's etc is very important - though I find it demoralising when the mix sounds nailed on one system and turd on another!!
There is also another plugin - Redline 112db http://www.112db.com/redline/monitor/ which lets you simulate different rooms conditions - also useful if you are on headphones and want to mimic stereo speakers etc.
I agree, referencing on different headphones, hifi's etc is very important - though I find it demoralising when the mix sounds nailed on one system and turd on another!!
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