Can we talk about the TT ?
Discussion
I'd like to have a discussion about the Isle of Man TT, otherwise known as the annual road racer cull.
I'm a huge and passionate long term supporter of bike racing, but this annual loss of life deeply saddens me.
I don't support the wailing ban them brigade,as I believe people are allowed to follow there own ideals.
I'd like to something change, but I don't have an answer as to what.
I can fully understand the riders seeing the challenge, but surely the ultimate price is to high,
How many more will we lose before enough is enough ?
I've posted this in general ms as I'd like to get a more rounded discussion than it would be in biker banter section.
What are your thoughts gents?
I'm a huge and passionate long term supporter of bike racing, but this annual loss of life deeply saddens me.
I don't support the wailing ban them brigade,as I believe people are allowed to follow there own ideals.
I'd like to something change, but I don't have an answer as to what.
I can fully understand the riders seeing the challenge, but surely the ultimate price is to high,
How many more will we lose before enough is enough ?
I've posted this in general ms as I'd like to get a more rounded discussion than it would be in biker banter section.
What are your thoughts gents?
My wife and I had this same discussion last night whilst watching the TT on ITV4.
She held the same view that it was too dangerous, but I shared the view of the presenters its an adrenaline sport, thats part of the appeal - yes its risky, but the guys involved are doing it of their own choice just like skydiving, rock diving etc etc.
I think its great to watch - incredible skill and bravery on show.
She held the same view that it was too dangerous, but I shared the view of the presenters its an adrenaline sport, thats part of the appeal - yes its risky, but the guys involved are doing it of their own choice just like skydiving, rock diving etc etc.
I think its great to watch - incredible skill and bravery on show.
I'm not sure you can change anything other than altering the course to such an extent as to make it uninteresting to both riders and spectators.
You'd only end the event when riders don't want to take part or the number of fans dwindles because it is no fun seeing your heroes not coming home.
It's a different situation to the recent Jim Clark Rally incident as the riders know the risks and those spectators may or may not have known they were stood in a dangerous place.
You'd only end the event when riders don't want to take part or the number of fans dwindles because it is no fun seeing your heroes not coming home.
It's a different situation to the recent Jim Clark Rally incident as the riders know the risks and those spectators may or may not have known they were stood in a dangerous place.
Truckosaurus said:
I'm not sure you can change anything other than altering the course to such an extent as to make it uninteresting to both riders and spectators.
You'd only end the event when riders don't want to take part or the number of fans dwindles because it is no fun seeing your heroes not coming home.
I struggled to come up with anything last night on how this could be made safer, other than limiting the power/capacity of the bikes (which the manufacturers won't do) I just don't know?? Electric bikes??You'd only end the event when riders don't want to take part or the number of fans dwindles because it is no fun seeing your heroes not coming home.
Anyone taking part in any form of motorsport should know the dangers, from trackdays to racing so as we all know it isn't forced upon any of us to do, I hope non of the racers are doing the TT for financial gain anyway.
My only way to rationalise this personally is each participant was doing something they absolutely loved and enjoyed immensely at the time of their death, I'm sure they wouldn't want it any other way.
Everyone is well aware of the risks.
Those closest to the ones that are lost are almost always still in love with the sport and want it to carry on.
Its never those within the sports wanting it to change, its those on the outside who have little to do with it. I want to live in a world where we can make our own educated choices on the risks we take. We have one life lets live it how we wish. Everyone doing this has made a choice to do so, and knows just what the price may be.
Having said all that i do feel for everyone involved with the recent accidents. I hope every year for a 'safe' year of racing for all, but imo the sport needs the 'danger' element to be worth doing and watching.
Those closest to the ones that are lost are almost always still in love with the sport and want it to carry on.
Its never those within the sports wanting it to change, its those on the outside who have little to do with it. I want to live in a world where we can make our own educated choices on the risks we take. We have one life lets live it how we wish. Everyone doing this has made a choice to do so, and knows just what the price may be.
Having said all that i do feel for everyone involved with the recent accidents. I hope every year for a 'safe' year of racing for all, but imo the sport needs the 'danger' element to be worth doing and watching.
My thoughts, which apply to every "risky" activity, not just the TT or motorsport, are:
It is acceptable to allow people to take large safety risks, as long as everyone involved is aware of the risks and has mitigated them as far as possible.
There has been an average of 2.3 rider fatalities per year on the Snaefell mountain course. The freqeuncy of fatalities is not decreasing. There are approx 100-150 riders competing at the TT this week, maybe similar on GP week.
Therefore, if you are a rider you should understand that there is an approx 1:125 probability that you are not coming home. You, your family, your friends, your sponsors, your team, everyone needs to understand and accept that. It's hard to see how a single rider can mitigate that risk to almost zero, while simultaneously trying for the quickest lap time. Personally, even if I was quick enough, I could not accept that risk.
If you are a spectator, marshall, official, tourist etc, there is a much much lower chance of you being injured or killed. However, that probability is not zero. Sadly we have seen last weekend (elsewhere) that spectators do suffer. You can mitigate the risk to yourself, to almost zero by chosing an appropriate viewing location etc. That is a risk I could accept.
The part where I struggle with is, as a spectator watching the riders, it is almost certain that one of those riders will be killed. In fact statistically it is likely that 2 or 3 will be killed. I'm not sure if I am comfortable watching that. There is nothing I can do to mitigate the risk of those guys being hurt.
I've been to the NW200 which has a slightly better safety record, I was lucky in that I went in 2011 when there were no fatalities (actually, there was little racing due to the weather). I loved the racing, I love motorsport. I'm a car rally competitor and keen F1 / MotoGP armchair fan. But there's something about Motorbike road racing that sits uncomfortably with me. So I get this feeling that I don't want to be involved. I'm getting that feeling now regarding closed road rallying, despite having previously competed/spectated on the Jim Clark Rally many times without qualms.
Maybe it's beacuse I'm getting older, have become a parent, and have been close to a motorsport fatality.
Not sure if it's answering your question, but my conclusion is - let it continue but ensure everyone knows the risks and those risks are mitigated. Choose yourself whether you are involved or not.
It is acceptable to allow people to take large safety risks, as long as everyone involved is aware of the risks and has mitigated them as far as possible.
There has been an average of 2.3 rider fatalities per year on the Snaefell mountain course. The freqeuncy of fatalities is not decreasing. There are approx 100-150 riders competing at the TT this week, maybe similar on GP week.
Therefore, if you are a rider you should understand that there is an approx 1:125 probability that you are not coming home. You, your family, your friends, your sponsors, your team, everyone needs to understand and accept that. It's hard to see how a single rider can mitigate that risk to almost zero, while simultaneously trying for the quickest lap time. Personally, even if I was quick enough, I could not accept that risk.
If you are a spectator, marshall, official, tourist etc, there is a much much lower chance of you being injured or killed. However, that probability is not zero. Sadly we have seen last weekend (elsewhere) that spectators do suffer. You can mitigate the risk to yourself, to almost zero by chosing an appropriate viewing location etc. That is a risk I could accept.
The part where I struggle with is, as a spectator watching the riders, it is almost certain that one of those riders will be killed. In fact statistically it is likely that 2 or 3 will be killed. I'm not sure if I am comfortable watching that. There is nothing I can do to mitigate the risk of those guys being hurt.
I've been to the NW200 which has a slightly better safety record, I was lucky in that I went in 2011 when there were no fatalities (actually, there was little racing due to the weather). I loved the racing, I love motorsport. I'm a car rally competitor and keen F1 / MotoGP armchair fan. But there's something about Motorbike road racing that sits uncomfortably with me. So I get this feeling that I don't want to be involved. I'm getting that feeling now regarding closed road rallying, despite having previously competed/spectated on the Jim Clark Rally many times without qualms.
Maybe it's beacuse I'm getting older, have become a parent, and have been close to a motorsport fatality.
Not sure if it's answering your question, but my conclusion is - let it continue but ensure everyone knows the risks and those risks are mitigated. Choose yourself whether you are involved or not.
Edited by thepawbroon on Wednesday 4th June 11:19
Who decides the price is too high?
Who thinks it should be made safer?
If the answer to those is anyone other than the participants then you have it wrong IMO. Formula 1 got safe because the drivers and teams protested and demanded change. Nobody in road racing seems to want that.
Of course there's an argument for the strain it puts on those left behind but that's something each rider needs to deal with personally.
Nobody likes seeing people die and it's tragic when it happens. But this isn't affecting the public at large and it's happening on closed roads with willing participants. Not anyone else's place to define where the limit is IMO.
Who thinks it should be made safer?
If the answer to those is anyone other than the participants then you have it wrong IMO. Formula 1 got safe because the drivers and teams protested and demanded change. Nobody in road racing seems to want that.
Of course there's an argument for the strain it puts on those left behind but that's something each rider needs to deal with personally.
Nobody likes seeing people die and it's tragic when it happens. But this isn't affecting the public at large and it's happening on closed roads with willing participants. Not anyone else's place to define where the limit is IMO.
I think one of the things that concerns me more is that I wonder how much of the desire is Actually financially driven?
I saw a tweet from Broc Parkes this morning that basically said riders get no wages or winnings these days, so turn to the TT to earn some money.
I think it's easy for a rider to say he does it for the thrill, but I do wonder.
I saw a tweet from Broc Parkes this morning that basically said riders get no wages or winnings these days, so turn to the TT to earn some money.
I think it's easy for a rider to say he does it for the thrill, but I do wonder.
[Flame suit on]
I'm a life long (car) racer through and through.
Everyone has a decision on whether to race at the TT or not - but sometimes its a calling with in that makes people race in dangerous circuits, the forbidden fruit, or "it wont happen to me" mentality.
I honestly think the TT course is too dangerous - a fatality or two every year is a very high a price to pay in my eyes.
Weak I know, but if the temptation wasnt there, we would not have lives lost.
Looking forward the comments of how much of woofter I am, and methaphors that are totally irrelevant.
:-)
I'm a life long (car) racer through and through.
Everyone has a decision on whether to race at the TT or not - but sometimes its a calling with in that makes people race in dangerous circuits, the forbidden fruit, or "it wont happen to me" mentality.
I honestly think the TT course is too dangerous - a fatality or two every year is a very high a price to pay in my eyes.
Weak I know, but if the temptation wasnt there, we would not have lives lost.
Looking forward the comments of how much of woofter I am, and methaphors that are totally irrelevant.
:-)
Disastrous said:
Who decides the price is too high?
Who thinks it should be made safer?
If the answer to those is anyone other than the participants then you have it wrong IMO.
I think that's right.Who thinks it should be made safer?
If the answer to those is anyone other than the participants then you have it wrong IMO.
Change has to come from within. Ban it when they want to do it, and they'll find new and more interesting ways to kill themselves. It's not like this is the only motorbike motorsport available. There are many safer options but they decide to do this.
When the greater risk is to non-competitors then it's something for the non-competitors to demand changes to. I don't think the TT is in that situation.
Turn7 said:
I think one of the things that concerns me more is that I wonder how much of the desire is Actually financially driven?
I saw a tweet from Broc Parkes this morning that basically said riders get no wages or winnings these days, so turn to the TT to earn some money.
I think it's easy for a rider to say he does it for the thrill, but I do wonder.
That's what I am worried about, it's now financially drivenI saw a tweet from Broc Parkes this morning that basically said riders get no wages or winnings these days, so turn to the TT to earn some money.
I think it's easy for a rider to say he does it for the thrill, but I do wonder.
Dr Jekyll said:
Naïve question here. Has there ever been a TT without a death?
A few.ETA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Snaefell_Moun...
They have their own wiki page. Obviously.
Turn7 said:
I think one of the things that concerns me more is that I wonder how much of the desire is Actually financially driven?
I saw a tweet from Broc Parkes this morning that basically said riders get no wages or winnings these days, so turn to the TT to earn some money.
I think it's easy for a rider to say he does it for the thrill, but I do wonder.
You get £20k at best for winning a senior or superbike TT, assuming you're in first every lap. £10k for superstock/supersport. Less for the sidecars. It doesn't seem a lot relative to the cost of preparing a bike and running the sort of team needed to win. I guess you can do a full season of road racing but they're in it for the kudos and exposure (and possible opportunities/sponsorship/money that brings) rather than earning their danger money.I saw a tweet from Broc Parkes this morning that basically said riders get no wages or winnings these days, so turn to the TT to earn some money.
I think it's easy for a rider to say he does it for the thrill, but I do wonder.
Brings to mind the Red Bull Rampage which is the extreme end of the MTB world, people hurling themselves off bigger and bigger jumps in the desert. No deaths (yet) but riders certainly aren't in it for the money.
DanielSan said:
They're all big and ugly enough to make their own decisions and they choose to go and race knowing the risks. Aslong as they're happy with that then fair play to them, let them do it. The last thing that should ever happen is the TT being banned.
This.They know the risks, they still do it.
None of the arguments for or against are rock solid.
As I've said, I'm not a ban it, but It just saddens me to see the loss of life.
The other thing that worries me is the likes of Jm or Md , any of the veterans.
There's only so many times you can play Russian roulette and win. These guys are really pushing their luck in my mind.
I used to believe building a circuit was the answer, but I know now that won't work.
Maybe a bit more safety work on the course , including some air fences at strategic points,
I know it can't be sanitised to much or the appeal will diminish .
Using 600s instead of superbikes won't work either. as 90 odd mph is the same regardless .
I find the whole thing frustrating because it's almost an anachronism now, but one the whole island depends on for income.
As I've said, I'm not a ban it, but It just saddens me to see the loss of life.
The other thing that worries me is the likes of Jm or Md , any of the veterans.
There's only so many times you can play Russian roulette and win. These guys are really pushing their luck in my mind.
I used to believe building a circuit was the answer, but I know now that won't work.
Maybe a bit more safety work on the course , including some air fences at strategic points,
I know it can't be sanitised to much or the appeal will diminish .
Using 600s instead of superbikes won't work either. as 90 odd mph is the same regardless .
I find the whole thing frustrating because it's almost an anachronism now, but one the whole island depends on for income.
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