The great fuel economy swindle!
Discussion
I've seen the TV advert for the new Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (Plugin Hybrid Electric Vehicle) a few times now. Nothing much stands out in the ad for me, other than the phrase "the ability to achieve up to 149mpg".
149mpg. That's an impressive fuel economy figure. Almost double what VW promise for the Golf Bluemotion. Three times the fuel economy promised by similar sized diesel vehicles.
A driver travelling 20k miles a year would stand to save approx £1700 per year on fuel changing from a 50mpg car to a 149mpg car. Big savings, and a big reason for purchasing a vehicle like this for many people. Savings over a petrol car achieving just 30mpg would be even bigger.
However, as we all know, in day to day driving cars don't always achieve the posted figures. A claimed 50mpg vehicle may only deliver 40mpg. A 35mpg car might only give 30mpg. We're probably happy if our cars get to within 20% of the claimed economy figure.
So on to the Outlander. Like all vehicles, it has to go through the NEDC test, which involes 7 miles of driving at various speeds. All vehicles go through the same test, which should provide an easy way of comparing one vehicle with any other.
However, not with hybrids. Their figures are skewed, as they can use battery power for the majority of the test, with the engine only cutting in for the higher speed work. The test isn't long enough to drain the battery in most hybrids, so the test results are artifically inflated to way over what they will give normal driving.
Anyone who thinks they will get 149mpg from an Outlander PHEV is going to be very disappointed. Once the batteries are drained it reverts to the economy of a 2.0 petrol. Over a long journey the Outlander deliver as little as 30% of its quoted economy figure. WhatCar magazine recorded 39.2mpg in their tests.
This isn't an attack at the Outlander or the manufacturers of any other hybrid vehicles. It's an attack on the way the government allows the vehicles to be tested using a method wholly unsuitable for hybrid figures, and the fact that they allow manufacturers to use these distorted figures in their advertising.
Basically, I don't see the point of quoting MPG figures that bear no relvance to the real world.
149mpg. That's an impressive fuel economy figure. Almost double what VW promise for the Golf Bluemotion. Three times the fuel economy promised by similar sized diesel vehicles.
A driver travelling 20k miles a year would stand to save approx £1700 per year on fuel changing from a 50mpg car to a 149mpg car. Big savings, and a big reason for purchasing a vehicle like this for many people. Savings over a petrol car achieving just 30mpg would be even bigger.
However, as we all know, in day to day driving cars don't always achieve the posted figures. A claimed 50mpg vehicle may only deliver 40mpg. A 35mpg car might only give 30mpg. We're probably happy if our cars get to within 20% of the claimed economy figure.
So on to the Outlander. Like all vehicles, it has to go through the NEDC test, which involes 7 miles of driving at various speeds. All vehicles go through the same test, which should provide an easy way of comparing one vehicle with any other.
However, not with hybrids. Their figures are skewed, as they can use battery power for the majority of the test, with the engine only cutting in for the higher speed work. The test isn't long enough to drain the battery in most hybrids, so the test results are artifically inflated to way over what they will give normal driving.
Anyone who thinks they will get 149mpg from an Outlander PHEV is going to be very disappointed. Once the batteries are drained it reverts to the economy of a 2.0 petrol. Over a long journey the Outlander deliver as little as 30% of its quoted economy figure. WhatCar magazine recorded 39.2mpg in their tests.
This isn't an attack at the Outlander or the manufacturers of any other hybrid vehicles. It's an attack on the way the government allows the vehicles to be tested using a method wholly unsuitable for hybrid figures, and the fact that they allow manufacturers to use these distorted figures in their advertising.
Basically, I don't see the point of quoting MPG figures that bear no relvance to the real world.
ks.IanCress said:
Anyone who thinks they will get 149mpg from an Outlander PHEV is going to be very disappointed.
Unless they are one of the legion of school run mums who uses it to go a few miles in urban conditions twice a day, to and from school and the supermarket, and plugs it in at home. In which case they will likely never burn any petrol at all.It's all in the usage with plug-ins.
The NEDC has been used for a long time to measure emissions and fuel economy. Its now out of date due to technology moving on, even on Non hybrid vehicles.
Dont worry though, new tests are on the horizon to deal with this issue. Specifically real world emissions testing.
EEEK!
Dont worry though, new tests are on the horizon to deal with this issue. Specifically real world emissions testing.
EEEK!
Edited by mini me on Friday 6th June 12:08
Lowtimer said:
IanCress said:
Anyone who thinks they will get 149mpg from an Outlander PHEV is going to be very disappointed.
Unless they are one of the legion of school run mums who uses it to go a few miles in urban conditions twice a day, to and from school and the supermarket, and plugs it in at home. In which case they will likely never burn any petrol at all.It's all in the usage with plug-ins.
mini me said:
The NEDC has been used for a long time to measure emissions and fuel economy. Its now out of date due to technology moving on, even on Non hybrid vehicles.
^This^The test is so specific that it can be recognised by the ECU which automatically switches to a high efficiency engine map.
ralphrj said:
^This^
The test is so specific that it can be recognised by the ECU which automatically switches to a high efficiency engine map.
No not that at all. that would be classed as a defeat device and is very illegal!The test is so specific that it can be recognised by the ECU which automatically switches to a high efficiency engine map.
its just that the test only simulates one type of driving. We can make a car which is very economical "on cycle" but rubbish everywhere else. This isnt intentional of course. We want it to be as economical as possible everywhere but as with everything on a car there is compromise and trade offs. You want good NVH, MPG suffers. Good performance, MPG suffers etc etc.
austinsmirk said:
what does a prius actually achieve in normal driving, ie school run, commute etc.
not 55mpg on a motorway------- you know the unrealistic speed/journey no one ever does !
not to take the P btw, just interested.
Mine (mark III) does anything between 58 and 65 mpg in normal urban short-range usage. The mark II used to do about 5 mpg less. Those are standard hybrids, not the plug-in model.not 55mpg on a motorway------- you know the unrealistic speed/journey no one ever does !
not to take the P btw, just interested.
IanCress said:
Basically, I don't see the point of quoting MPG figures that bear no relevance to the real world.
I fully agree, mpg is the distance you get from 1 gallon of fuel using the petrol engine, If I drove my car to the top of a mountain pass but free wheeled back down with the engine off could I claim the miles "driven" due to gravity?I think this ad deserves to be reported as it is misleading.
(The car driven down the hill would be from the 70's or before without PAS or assisted brakes and illegal to freewheel in this manner).
RizzoTheRat said:
For a plug in the bit of information I'd want to known would be battery range. My mrs does about 5 miles each way so 8 mpg should be possible.
Here you have the same problem though. Battery range under what circumstances?50mph cruise
70 mph cruise
town driving?
which town? what time of day/ day of week.
Its very hard to devise a test which will acurately reflect real world because everyones real world is different. Its something the manufactureres and law makers are aware of, but its not a simple problem to resolve.
mini me said:
Here you have the same problem though. Battery range under what circumstances?
50mph cruise
70 mph cruise
town driving?
which town? what time of day/ day of week.
Its very hard to devise a test whcih will acurately reflect real world because everyones real world is different. Its something hte manufactureres and law makers are aware of but its not a simple problem to resolve.
True, but to my mind there'd be less variation there than trying to compare cars over a course that some can complete on battery alone and some can't and have to switch to petrol/diesel engine.50mph cruise
70 mph cruise
town driving?
which town? what time of day/ day of week.
Its very hard to devise a test whcih will acurately reflect real world because everyones real world is different. Its something hte manufactureres and law makers are aware of but its not a simple problem to resolve.
I'd also have the added complication that in the example of my mrs it would mainly be with the lights/heater/wipers on as she only uses the car for commuting in bad weather
redstu said:
I think this ad deserves to be reported as it is misleading.
(The car driven down the hill would be from the 70's or before without PAS or assisted brakes and illegal to freewheel in this manner).
You can report it all you like: the fact is that by law ONLY the official EU-defined emissions / economy tests may be used in reference to fuel consumption for car marketing by manufacturers or dealers, whether they are misleading or not. If they were to say "And if you use it like XXXX then expect YYY mpg" then that's when they would actually be breaking the law.(The car driven down the hill would be from the 70's or before without PAS or assisted brakes and illegal to freewheel in this manner).
IanCress said:
...it has to go through the NEDC test, which involes 7 miles of driving at various speeds... snip ...so the test results are artifically inflated to way over what they will give normal driving.
What do you think the average trip length in the UK is? I'll give you a clue - it's 7 miles.Yes, you won't get 149mpg if you are a salesperson driving to Aberdeen and back daily but that kind of use is far from typical. The test has been designed the way it has for a reason.
for what its worth mitsubishi play dowm the official figures in their marketing blurb.
I have done a bit of research on the outlander phev, as with the wife doing about 30 miles per day, I reckon we would use one of these and gain most from its electric range. Anyhoo, some australian journos managed to obtain the claimed figure, with a bit of careful hypermiling.
I guess when someone comes up with a sensible way to show the cost to run cars with all manner of motive power then it will be easier, but for now we just have to take it al lwith the large pinch of salt we have been vuiewing official figures with for years.
I have done a bit of research on the outlander phev, as with the wife doing about 30 miles per day, I reckon we would use one of these and gain most from its electric range. Anyhoo, some australian journos managed to obtain the claimed figure, with a bit of careful hypermiling.
I guess when someone comes up with a sensible way to show the cost to run cars with all manner of motive power then it will be easier, but for now we just have to take it al lwith the large pinch of salt we have been vuiewing official figures with for years.
Lowtimer said:
austinsmirk said:
what does a prius actually achieve in normal driving, ie school run, commute etc.
not 55mpg on a motorway------- you know the unrealistic speed/journey no one ever does !
not to take the P btw, just interested.
Mine (mark III) does anything between 58 and 65 mpg in normal urban short-range usage. The mark II used to do about 5 mpg less. Those are standard hybrids, not the plug-in model.not 55mpg on a motorway------- you know the unrealistic speed/journey no one ever does !
not to take the P btw, just interested.
That seems to be the difference between hybrids is they will go on achieving excellent mileage but ev's like the ampera revert to petrol and only get 40mpg.
Even the prius will easily do 99.9mpg around town so full electric is perfectly capable of 100+ if the battery has enough charge.
My dad is living in Cyprus and using I think a phase III Prius. Inland terrain is very hilly, coastline is flat. When I was there last summer I noticed his long-term average mpg readout was 15.7! I can't help wondering what my XK8 would be giving me there?
ETA Last time I checked, electricity didn't come in gallons. To discuss this in mpg terms is very skewed. A different measure should be used with hybrids, pence per mile?
Also, those hybrid batteries will need replacing in x years presumably, so factor that in?
ETA Last time I checked, electricity didn't come in gallons. To discuss this in mpg terms is very skewed. A different measure should be used with hybrids, pence per mile?
Also, those hybrid batteries will need replacing in x years presumably, so factor that in?
Edited by fausTVR on Saturday 7th June 08:59
Edited by fausTVR on Saturday 7th June 09:02
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