Rejecting a car, Small claims court - the whole saga A - Z
Discussion
This is an in-depth (1600 words) description of my troubles and experience rejecting a used car, it may help you in a similar situation.
I will leave out details about the garage where I purchased the vehicle.
On 28/9/13 I purchased a 2006 Alfa Romeo GT 1.9JTDm for £3900 There were not many of this model around at my budget and although I did not pay a premium price, it certainly was not cheap for it’s age, condition etc (96k miles, FSH).
I gave it a thorough look over and a gave it a decent test drive and all seemed well. I’m no expert, but I consider myself a bit of an enthusiast and know a fair bit about cars.
I drove it the 50 miles home without issue. The next day, upon starting it up, it was very lumpy on tickover for a minute or two, which did not seem right. I’ve driven many diesels and none have done this.
Then there is this nagging clatter/rattle from the top end of the engine on gentle acceleration. It’s even noticeable over the diesel rattle.
Finally, when cruising or just applying the slightest amount of throttle, you can feel it jerking just slightly as if starved of fuel.
Anyway, a few days later, I called the garage and I popped over the next weekend for them to look at it. They’re a small-ish garage, not a garage that regularly performs repairs, but the owner is a former mechanic and they have a small workshop. They hooked up the laptop and found an error on injector number 1. They performed another test where hooked up some tubes and some little bottles to the injectors. I forget what the test was but, injector 1 was clearly showing different results.
After a little “discussion” with regards to whether it was covered on the extremely flimsy warranty, they replaced the injector FOC.
Anyway, on the drive home, things were still not right and the next morning, it was still lumpy on start up.
I called the sales garage again and they agreed I could go to a local garage near to me for them to look at we’ll see what the upshot was.
The local garage found more injector errors; excessive compensation on cylinder 3 and injector 1 not seated correctly (yes, the one the other garage replaced). They also found an EGR valve fault and recommended this was either removed & cleaned or replaced and the inlet manifold swirl flap actuator arm was missing. The swirl flap thing is not a major design/performance benefit, more of a pain in the arse, as long as the flaps aren’t stuck in the closed position, which these weren’t.
I called the garage where I purchased it from and they agreed to pay for the parts but not the labour as they could do the work if I went there and it was my choice to have the injector work completed locally. I thought this was fair enough.
Not sure looking back why I didn’t ask for the EGR work to be completed at the same time, I think my thinking must have been that the injector faults were the main issue and the EGR thing could wait.
The work got completed but it was still not right; poor starting, juddery when cruising, the tappy rattling noise plus the EGR fault was still to be rectified.
It was at this point I started to think about rejecting the car. I waited until the garage had transferred the money into my account for the parts, then I got busy with drafting the letter.
There was some on-line advise as to what should be in a rejection letter, but I had to put it all together into one document.
I was quite impressed with my handywork, I could paste it into here, but it is a full page long but I could make it available to download or email it or something.
I posted it off (recorded delivery) a couple of days later and he called back almost immediately. This is now three weeks after the original purchase. We discussed the faults, but he had no idea of the legal side or the Sale of Goods Act and that I was entitled to my money back. He was still referring to the fact that the warranty did not cover these issues, but I had to spell it out that it had zero to do with a warranty and everything to do with selling things that work as they should and as they are advertised for a reasonable period after purchase. This includes cars, washing machines, toys, kitchen sinks…… anything. I won’t quote the whole act, you can look it up.
Anyway, he agreed to take another look at the car and that I should leave it with them for a week. Bear in mind they are about 50 miles and 3 changes on the train…. Across London from me! But, as part of the Sale of Goods Act, you have to give them 3 chances to repair the item, so I had to let them keep it.
It gets better: between agreeing to take the car to them and actually doing so, more intermittent errors appeared on the dash. These included glow plug error and a stability control system error (can’t remember Alfa’s name for it). I took pictures on my phone of these for proof.
Anyway, I called a few days later and confidently, he said they’d fixed everything, including the “new” errors.
I collected the car and they’d fixed some of the faults but others were still there.
After all the above shenanigans, it’s now 9th November.
I took the car to an Alfa specialist not too far from me called Alfa Aid, for £15 they took it for a quick spin and replicated the errors, apart from the cold starting, because it was warm. I didn’t get a full report at this point, that comes later.
Anyway, I’d had enough at this point and wanted shot of the thing, it is then the long slog began:
I sent an email on the 19th November and letters on the 21st and 26th November confirming I was perusing rejection. Then on the 4th December, I sent a final letter confirming I would be taking them to the small claims court if they did not contact me and agree a refund, swap, or whatever. I even offered conciliation through a 3rd party, but it all fell on deaf ears.
So, on the 12th Jan 2014 I started a Small Claims case using Money Claim Online.
You pay £100, fill in a form online detailing what you’re claiming for and from who. Then you sit back and wait for a confirmation letter to drop on your doormat.
In the mean time, I took the car back to Alfa Aid & paid for an hours labour for a more thorough test, not a full-on 120 point check or anything, just a written report confirming that they could replicate the faults I was claiming for. This is the point, because I was rejecting the vehicle, I wanted the garage to concentrate on the faults I was rejecting the car for, rather than all the other little faults that also exist. I had this report in my back pocket to use as evidence if required.
It’s important to note that when rejecting a vehicle it is not driven further. So It’s been sat on my drive and only driven to the Alfa garage.
A couple of week pass then you get a letter confirming that the case is suitable for a small claims hearing and copies of the defendants initial defence (loads more on evidence etc. later).
You also get a N180 from to complete and have to pay a further £40.
There are also forms if you would like to utilise a conciliation service provided free of charge to try and come to a compromise with the other party.
I did not take this option because I had already suggested using a reconciliation service in one of my letters that was ignored.
Other forms arrive then finally on the 21st March I got confirmation of a date for the claim. It was for the 12th June! I couldn’t believe it was such a long way off.
It asked for a further £335 hearing fee and that all evidence must be submitted at least 14 day prior to the hearing date. That fee was a shock, but the defendant pays if you win and you get it back if things are settled no less than 7 days prior to the hearing.
So I start gathering evidence. I have all the letters and emails I have sent, all the postage receipts, some of the train receipts for traveling too and from the garage. Most importantly, I have the report from the Alfa specialist.
Also, the MOT becomes due so I speak to the Alfa garage once more to see if they can do a pre-MOT check so a full test of £40 - £50 quid is not wasted. They popped it up on a ramp and saw immediately that the suspension bushings are shagged and the exhaust bracket is broken. Another fault materialised in that the drivers door handle broke internally so you couldn’t open the door from the outside (what a bag of spanners this car is).
They did me a quote totaling £880 inc VAT. These are for the few obvious faults, again, I didn’t ask for a full inspection.
Needless to say I didn’t get the car MOT’d and registered it as SORN.
So my evidence now included all the documents listed above and the two garage reports. You make three copies of each; one for the court, one for the defendant and one to bring to the court. I labelled them all up individually and had 20 pieces of evidence.
I posted these off recorded delivery with a few days to spare!
From the date I initiated the small claims process until the court hearing was 5 months.
12th June rolls around…….. I'll report back after 12th June!!
I will leave out details about the garage where I purchased the vehicle.
On 28/9/13 I purchased a 2006 Alfa Romeo GT 1.9JTDm for £3900 There were not many of this model around at my budget and although I did not pay a premium price, it certainly was not cheap for it’s age, condition etc (96k miles, FSH).
I gave it a thorough look over and a gave it a decent test drive and all seemed well. I’m no expert, but I consider myself a bit of an enthusiast and know a fair bit about cars.
I drove it the 50 miles home without issue. The next day, upon starting it up, it was very lumpy on tickover for a minute or two, which did not seem right. I’ve driven many diesels and none have done this.
Then there is this nagging clatter/rattle from the top end of the engine on gentle acceleration. It’s even noticeable over the diesel rattle.
Finally, when cruising or just applying the slightest amount of throttle, you can feel it jerking just slightly as if starved of fuel.
Anyway, a few days later, I called the garage and I popped over the next weekend for them to look at it. They’re a small-ish garage, not a garage that regularly performs repairs, but the owner is a former mechanic and they have a small workshop. They hooked up the laptop and found an error on injector number 1. They performed another test where hooked up some tubes and some little bottles to the injectors. I forget what the test was but, injector 1 was clearly showing different results.
After a little “discussion” with regards to whether it was covered on the extremely flimsy warranty, they replaced the injector FOC.
Anyway, on the drive home, things were still not right and the next morning, it was still lumpy on start up.
I called the sales garage again and they agreed I could go to a local garage near to me for them to look at we’ll see what the upshot was.
The local garage found more injector errors; excessive compensation on cylinder 3 and injector 1 not seated correctly (yes, the one the other garage replaced). They also found an EGR valve fault and recommended this was either removed & cleaned or replaced and the inlet manifold swirl flap actuator arm was missing. The swirl flap thing is not a major design/performance benefit, more of a pain in the arse, as long as the flaps aren’t stuck in the closed position, which these weren’t.
I called the garage where I purchased it from and they agreed to pay for the parts but not the labour as they could do the work if I went there and it was my choice to have the injector work completed locally. I thought this was fair enough.
Not sure looking back why I didn’t ask for the EGR work to be completed at the same time, I think my thinking must have been that the injector faults were the main issue and the EGR thing could wait.
The work got completed but it was still not right; poor starting, juddery when cruising, the tappy rattling noise plus the EGR fault was still to be rectified.
It was at this point I started to think about rejecting the car. I waited until the garage had transferred the money into my account for the parts, then I got busy with drafting the letter.
There was some on-line advise as to what should be in a rejection letter, but I had to put it all together into one document.
I was quite impressed with my handywork, I could paste it into here, but it is a full page long but I could make it available to download or email it or something.
I posted it off (recorded delivery) a couple of days later and he called back almost immediately. This is now three weeks after the original purchase. We discussed the faults, but he had no idea of the legal side or the Sale of Goods Act and that I was entitled to my money back. He was still referring to the fact that the warranty did not cover these issues, but I had to spell it out that it had zero to do with a warranty and everything to do with selling things that work as they should and as they are advertised for a reasonable period after purchase. This includes cars, washing machines, toys, kitchen sinks…… anything. I won’t quote the whole act, you can look it up.
Anyway, he agreed to take another look at the car and that I should leave it with them for a week. Bear in mind they are about 50 miles and 3 changes on the train…. Across London from me! But, as part of the Sale of Goods Act, you have to give them 3 chances to repair the item, so I had to let them keep it.
It gets better: between agreeing to take the car to them and actually doing so, more intermittent errors appeared on the dash. These included glow plug error and a stability control system error (can’t remember Alfa’s name for it). I took pictures on my phone of these for proof.
Anyway, I called a few days later and confidently, he said they’d fixed everything, including the “new” errors.
I collected the car and they’d fixed some of the faults but others were still there.
After all the above shenanigans, it’s now 9th November.
I took the car to an Alfa specialist not too far from me called Alfa Aid, for £15 they took it for a quick spin and replicated the errors, apart from the cold starting, because it was warm. I didn’t get a full report at this point, that comes later.
Anyway, I’d had enough at this point and wanted shot of the thing, it is then the long slog began:
I sent an email on the 19th November and letters on the 21st and 26th November confirming I was perusing rejection. Then on the 4th December, I sent a final letter confirming I would be taking them to the small claims court if they did not contact me and agree a refund, swap, or whatever. I even offered conciliation through a 3rd party, but it all fell on deaf ears.
So, on the 12th Jan 2014 I started a Small Claims case using Money Claim Online.
You pay £100, fill in a form online detailing what you’re claiming for and from who. Then you sit back and wait for a confirmation letter to drop on your doormat.
In the mean time, I took the car back to Alfa Aid & paid for an hours labour for a more thorough test, not a full-on 120 point check or anything, just a written report confirming that they could replicate the faults I was claiming for. This is the point, because I was rejecting the vehicle, I wanted the garage to concentrate on the faults I was rejecting the car for, rather than all the other little faults that also exist. I had this report in my back pocket to use as evidence if required.
It’s important to note that when rejecting a vehicle it is not driven further. So It’s been sat on my drive and only driven to the Alfa garage.
A couple of week pass then you get a letter confirming that the case is suitable for a small claims hearing and copies of the defendants initial defence (loads more on evidence etc. later).
You also get a N180 from to complete and have to pay a further £40.
There are also forms if you would like to utilise a conciliation service provided free of charge to try and come to a compromise with the other party.
I did not take this option because I had already suggested using a reconciliation service in one of my letters that was ignored.
Other forms arrive then finally on the 21st March I got confirmation of a date for the claim. It was for the 12th June! I couldn’t believe it was such a long way off.
It asked for a further £335 hearing fee and that all evidence must be submitted at least 14 day prior to the hearing date. That fee was a shock, but the defendant pays if you win and you get it back if things are settled no less than 7 days prior to the hearing.
So I start gathering evidence. I have all the letters and emails I have sent, all the postage receipts, some of the train receipts for traveling too and from the garage. Most importantly, I have the report from the Alfa specialist.
Also, the MOT becomes due so I speak to the Alfa garage once more to see if they can do a pre-MOT check so a full test of £40 - £50 quid is not wasted. They popped it up on a ramp and saw immediately that the suspension bushings are shagged and the exhaust bracket is broken. Another fault materialised in that the drivers door handle broke internally so you couldn’t open the door from the outside (what a bag of spanners this car is).
They did me a quote totaling £880 inc VAT. These are for the few obvious faults, again, I didn’t ask for a full inspection.
Needless to say I didn’t get the car MOT’d and registered it as SORN.
So my evidence now included all the documents listed above and the two garage reports. You make three copies of each; one for the court, one for the defendant and one to bring to the court. I labelled them all up individually and had 20 pieces of evidence.
I posted these off recorded delivery with a few days to spare!
From the date I initiated the small claims process until the court hearing was 5 months.
12th June rolls around…….. I'll report back after 12th June!!
Not heard a dicky bird since November despite 1 email & 3 letters, the last one threatened court action, still nothing. They could've still called & discussed anytime up to 7 days prior to the court date. They're as stubborn as I am!
Really hope they turn up, they get ccj's against them if they don't!
Really hope they turn up, they get ccj's against them if they don't!
Did this about 40 years ago via small claims court against a toyota main dealer for a Renault 16 not to reject but for car not being as descibed.
On day before court hearing dealers solicitor made me an offer which I wasn't prepared to accept. Pre court hearing solicitor again made me an offer -aolicitor said dealer had commissioned an independepnt report which I hadnt been advised about. Asked to see a copy it just said the car was in good condition for its age and mileage-didnt address any of the specific points about the cars condition for which I had independent engineers report. Solicitor didn't seem to appreciate me laughing out loud at his report.
At hearing judge said he couldn't hear case as he had a petrol account with garage but recommended that solicitor should get his client to settle case. Again heard nothing until date before reorganised meeting in front of another judge. Pre hearing solicitor again made offer which is almost all I am looking for including expenses etc, so agered to accept BUT subject to the offer being recorded by the court. Thus wouldn't have to start the action again if the dealer defaulted on the payment.
So be awary of asy offers pre 12th would suggest go to court and get it recorded as a judgement.
Needless to say I got cheque on last day set by court.
Very young and hell of a lot of stress taking car back to garage then finding it locked in a compound when making agreed collection- but experience came in usefull since.
Hope it works out for you.
On day before court hearing dealers solicitor made me an offer which I wasn't prepared to accept. Pre court hearing solicitor again made me an offer -aolicitor said dealer had commissioned an independepnt report which I hadnt been advised about. Asked to see a copy it just said the car was in good condition for its age and mileage-didnt address any of the specific points about the cars condition for which I had independent engineers report. Solicitor didn't seem to appreciate me laughing out loud at his report.
At hearing judge said he couldn't hear case as he had a petrol account with garage but recommended that solicitor should get his client to settle case. Again heard nothing until date before reorganised meeting in front of another judge. Pre hearing solicitor again made offer which is almost all I am looking for including expenses etc, so agered to accept BUT subject to the offer being recorded by the court. Thus wouldn't have to start the action again if the dealer defaulted on the payment.
So be awary of asy offers pre 12th would suggest go to court and get it recorded as a judgement.
Needless to say I got cheque on last day set by court.
Very young and hell of a lot of stress taking car back to garage then finding it locked in a compound when making agreed collection- but experience came in usefull since.
Hope it works out for you.
good luck to you, but unless I'm missing something, you bought an 8 yr old alfa for a few grand with 100k on the clock.
and the fact things are breaking is a surprise to you ?
one of my best mates had one: so much went wrong it, he was happy to see £100 for it when he px'd it........
however, clearly this one seems to have been already broken when you bought it, so I sincerely hope it works out for you.
and the fact things are breaking is a surprise to you ?
one of my best mates had one: so much went wrong it, he was happy to see £100 for it when he px'd it........
however, clearly this one seems to have been already broken when you bought it, so I sincerely hope it works out for you.
- 8 Years Old
- 96k Miles
- £3900 paid
- Injector Fault
- EGR Fault
- Suspension Bushes
- Exhaust Hanger
- Door Handle
I'd describe everything as age related wear and tear, interested to see what the judgement will be.
austinsmirk said:
good luck to you, but unless I'm missing something, you bought an 8 yr old alfa for a few grand with 100k on the clock.
and the fact things are breaking is a surprise to you ?
one of my best mates had one: so much went wrong it, he was happy to see £100 for it when he px'd it........
however, clearly this one seems to have been already broken when you bought it, so I sincerely hope it works out for you.
Yeah, what was I thinking; Alfa, 100K, 8yrs old. Maybe a bit optimistic that it would even get to the end of the road once driven out of the showroom!and the fact things are breaking is a surprise to you ?
one of my best mates had one: so much went wrong it, he was happy to see £100 for it when he px'd it........
however, clearly this one seems to have been already broken when you bought it, so I sincerely hope it works out for you.
Still, even for an Alfa it has loads wrong. It's the same with most manufacurers, you get dogs and you get reliable ones. I'm not specifically having a dig at Alfas, just this particular one.
Thanks all for the good luck comments.
Just about all of the engine faults can be put down to the swirl flaps not operating correctly and the EGR being blocked. The EGR is an easy and cheap fix, but the swirl flaps are a reason to cast a very critical eye over this model of car at that age and mileage before purchase as a new inlet manifold and actuator are the only way to fix it. Earlier CF3 engined cars are a better option as they don't have the flaps.
Door handle? - £8 for a new hinge from a FIAT dealer (Alfa don't sell them but they are identical to the ones used on FIAT 500s)
Suspension bushes - you bought an Alfa (or any car for that matter) with 96k and are surprised?!?! Having said that - new wishbones top and bottom for £100 the set.
I'm actually not having much sympathy for the OP as these are all well known and well documented issues with the car in question, with fixes that cost less than what has been paid out in fees to go down the legal route (plus the money tied up in a car that is going no-where and the associated expense of alternative transport).
This story clearly sets out the line between the litigious and the practically minded. I'd have more respect for someone who came on here posting about how they sorted these faults inexpensively and are now enjoying driving the car, rather than detailing precisely how to be a handless bureaucrat.
Door handle? - £8 for a new hinge from a FIAT dealer (Alfa don't sell them but they are identical to the ones used on FIAT 500s)
Suspension bushes - you bought an Alfa (or any car for that matter) with 96k and are surprised?!?! Having said that - new wishbones top and bottom for £100 the set.
I'm actually not having much sympathy for the OP as these are all well known and well documented issues with the car in question, with fixes that cost less than what has been paid out in fees to go down the legal route (plus the money tied up in a car that is going no-where and the associated expense of alternative transport).
This story clearly sets out the line between the litigious and the practically minded. I'd have more respect for someone who came on here posting about how they sorted these faults inexpensively and are now enjoying driving the car, rather than detailing precisely how to be a handless bureaucrat.
amusingduck said:
I'd describe everything as age related wear and tear, interested to see what the judgement will be.
Me too. If the person sitting in judgement does their homework and/or the sellers present a reasonable defence then I'm betting on the OP losing (and rightly so IMO).Edited by r11co on Monday 9th June 09:59
amusingduck said:
*8 Years Old
I'd describe everything as age related wear and tear, interested to see what the judgement will be.
So you're saying its ok for a dealer to sell any old s- 96k Miles
- £3900 paid
- Injector Fault
- EGR Fault
- Suspension Bushes
- Exhaust Hanger
- Door Handle
I'd describe everything as age related wear and tear, interested to see what the judgement will be.
t heap for 4k then? No comeback?Funkycoldribena said:
So you're saying its ok for a dealer to sell any old st heap for 4k then? No comeback?
No, but the Sale of Goods act has clauses that take into consideration age related wear and tear of second-hand items, especially cars. To put it succinctly - the court will not find in favour of someone who is expecting a fault free (ie. good as new) car at that age and mileage and wants to reject a car on the basis that it does not meet their unreasonable expectations, and nor should they.t heap for 4k then? No comeback?Edit to add - reading some case material would suggest that 100k miles is seen as a 'reasonable' lifespan of a car for legal purposes, so on that basis alone it's not looking good for the OP for rejection. Might have been better to get the faults fixed and go down the small claims route for the expenses - much better chance of a win!
Edited by r11co on Monday 9th June 10:18
r11co said:
Funkycoldribena said:
So you're saying its ok for a dealer to sell any old st heap for 4k then? No comeback?
No, but the Sale of Goods act has clauses that take into consideration age related wear and tear of second-hand items, especially cars. To put it succinctly - the court will not find in favour of someone who is expecting a fault free (ie. good as new) car at that age and mileage and wants to reject a car on the basis that it does not meet their unreasonable expectations, and nor should they.t heap for 4k then? No comeback?We shall see on Thursday but I think a few will have to eat their words...
r11co said:
Funkycoldribena said:
So you're saying its ok for a dealer to sell any old st heap for 4k then? No comeback?
No, but the Sale of Goods act has clauses that take into consideration age related wear and tear of second-hand items, especially cars. To put it succinctly - the court will not find in favour of someone who is expecting a fault free (ie. good as new) car at that age and mileage and wants to reject a car on the basis that it does not meet their unreasonable expectations, and nor should they.t heap for 4k then? No comeback?Edit to add - reading some case material would suggest that 100k miles is seen as a 'reasonable' lifespan of a car for legal purposes, so on that basis alone it's not looking good for the OP for rejection. Might have been better to get the faults fixed and go down the small claims route for the expenses - much better chance of a win!
Edited by r11co on Monday 9th June 10:18
If you went and purchased an Astra for £999 from a dealer with 160k on it and the clutch went a couple of months later, the law wouldn't tell the garage to replace the clutch.
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