Can you guess what this van driver was charged with?
Discussion
ecsrobin said:
Does someone have to be charged with something? Accidents do happen.
No they don't.The police are now adamant that accidents don't happen, someone is always at fault. Which is why they no longer refer to Road Traffic Accidents, but Road Traffic Collisions.
That said, whether or not you get charged normally depends on whether or not someoe gets hurt. Though it looks like the cyclist would be pretty badly hurt in this instance.
I'd have certainly thought that DWDCAA would be something that could be thrown at the driver.
Kell said:
The police are now adamant that accidents don't happen, someone is always at fault. Which is why they no longer refer to Road Traffic Accidents, but Road Traffic Collisions.
I think you're really saying "Beacuse the police now refer to Road Traffice Collisions, they must mean that there's no such thing as a Road Traffic Accident". Unfortunately your assumption is not quite correct. There are two lawful defences to "Careless Driving" in the road traffic act. (Note that "Driving Without Due Care & Attention" hasn't been around for some years now) These are where a 'swarm of bees enter your vehicle' (not terribly likely, but possible) and where you as a driver happen to sneeze. If the driver said he sneezed while he was waiting to pull out onto the other road, then the CPS would have been correct in not prosecuting him. Such a case is not the result of a deliberate action or carelessness, and is still considered to be 'accidental'.
His insurance would still have to pay out as he is still liable for the consequences of his actions, (voluntary or involuntary) but he wouldn't have been prosecuted.
I'm sure some legal bods can clarify but there must be a difference between accidentally not doing something and accidentally doing something. If I were sneezing at a junction I would not take that moment to pull out. If I were sneezing whilst
Moving I can see hiw it COULD be argued you veered out of your lane for example.
In this clip the default position was to wait and give way. To pull out shows a descisive action where he simply failed to look properly.
Moving I can see hiw it COULD be argued you veered out of your lane for example.
In this clip the default position was to wait and give way. To pull out shows a descisive action where he simply failed to look properly.
Edited by 0markymark0 on Monday 9th June 18:26
Looks like a similar situation to my February collision, in which I broke my shoulder blade. Only difference was that mine occurred at a roundabout, but add a circle painted onto the road and that little YouTube clip is pretty much exactly what happened to me.
Very sobering seeing it on camera like that. I hope to see mine at some point, as the Police stated that there was CCTV of it. The Air Ambulance was summoned to me, although thankfully I didn't need it in the end.
These videos should form the basis of a proper road safety campaign to educate these wazzocks. I had a trip to A&E on a spinal board, countless thousands of pounds spent on doctors, nurses, X-Rays and scans, plus the cost of follow up treatment and physiotherapy, and four months of pain. I'm still not fully fixed. All because some halfwit in a van couldn't be bothered to take a proper look before moving through a junction.
I haven't really had the time or the energy to be angry at 'my' van driver so far, but seeing that clip has stirred me up a bit, I can tell you.
Very sobering seeing it on camera like that. I hope to see mine at some point, as the Police stated that there was CCTV of it. The Air Ambulance was summoned to me, although thankfully I didn't need it in the end.
These videos should form the basis of a proper road safety campaign to educate these wazzocks. I had a trip to A&E on a spinal board, countless thousands of pounds spent on doctors, nurses, X-Rays and scans, plus the cost of follow up treatment and physiotherapy, and four months of pain. I'm still not fully fixed. All because some halfwit in a van couldn't be bothered to take a proper look before moving through a junction.
I haven't really had the time or the energy to be angry at 'my' van driver so far, but seeing that clip has stirred me up a bit, I can tell you.
That screen grab demonstrates exactly what I thought when I first viewed the clip...
...Why the hell didn't the first van just wait a few seconds for the bike to pass? He 'fails to emerge safely' from that junction in driving test jargon. That's a test fail right there, as it's a safety point. I failed my bus test many moons ago for failing to emerge safely, because I didn't come to a complete halt at a stop line, despite the fact that it was clear in both directions, before AND after I pulled out.
F
k it. I'd have charged the first driver with dangerous driving, and the second with the same offence, or possibly careless driving. Even if the charges were later dropped, the arrest would serve as a bit of a wake up call, and give a traffic officer the opportunity for a long chat in a windowless room to 'put them right' over a few things. As it is, if 'no further action' is the disposal, then both of the van drivers will go away with their poor standard of observation and decision making completely unchallenged.
...Why the hell didn't the first van just wait a few seconds for the bike to pass? He 'fails to emerge safely' from that junction in driving test jargon. That's a test fail right there, as it's a safety point. I failed my bus test many moons ago for failing to emerge safely, because I didn't come to a complete halt at a stop line, despite the fact that it was clear in both directions, before AND after I pulled out.
F
k it. I'd have charged the first driver with dangerous driving, and the second with the same offence, or possibly careless driving. Even if the charges were later dropped, the arrest would serve as a bit of a wake up call, and give a traffic officer the opportunity for a long chat in a windowless room to 'put them right' over a few things. As it is, if 'no further action' is the disposal, then both of the van drivers will go away with their poor standard of observation and decision making completely unchallenged. Whilst not wanting to defend the van driver but we are all too good at judging something from an outside perspective. We are watching a video from a 3rd person view and from that view it's clear the van is at fault.
Now put yourself in the seat of the van, is the cyclist blending it to the background? is there glare from the sun?
Certainly for me I nearly hit a cyclist the other day I came round a corner on a national limit road mid evening with trees covering the road. A lorry was coming the other way on a narrow stretch so I slowed down and moved to the left and at that moment I was shocked to see a cyclist all in black right in front of me!!! A bit more braking and I had avoided him and he was none the wiser (I think).
It shocked me quite a bit as I consider myself to be a very observant driver, but a lot of things added up to create a scenario where I could have hit him if that lorry wasn't there causing me to slow down. I believe it's often called the Swiss cheese model.
However it has made me realise I need to sort my riding kit out, all my jerseys are white or red but my rain jacket is black and I often where black shorts. So a new jacket is required for the bad weather and I'll certainly pay more attention in areas that are dark during the day as a cyclist is unlikely to be running lights.
Now put yourself in the seat of the van, is the cyclist blending it to the background? is there glare from the sun?
Certainly for me I nearly hit a cyclist the other day I came round a corner on a national limit road mid evening with trees covering the road. A lorry was coming the other way on a narrow stretch so I slowed down and moved to the left and at that moment I was shocked to see a cyclist all in black right in front of me!!! A bit more braking and I had avoided him and he was none the wiser (I think).
It shocked me quite a bit as I consider myself to be a very observant driver, but a lot of things added up to create a scenario where I could have hit him if that lorry wasn't there causing me to slow down. I believe it's often called the Swiss cheese model.
However it has made me realise I need to sort my riding kit out, all my jerseys are white or red but my rain jacket is black and I often where black shorts. So a new jacket is required for the bad weather and I'll certainly pay more attention in areas that are dark during the day as a cyclist is unlikely to be running lights.
ecsrobin said:
Whilst not wanting to defend the van driver but we are all too good at judging something from an outside perspective. We are watching a video from a 3rd person view and from that view it's clear the van is at fault.
Now put yourself in the seat of the van, is the cyclist blending it to the background? is there glare from the sun?
The van driver certainly didn't waste any time trying to find out.Now put yourself in the seat of the van, is the cyclist blending it to the background? is there glare from the sun?
Classic SMIDSY.
I am rabidly pro-cyclist but I am really not sure there is much point prosecuting here.
What grinds my gears are all the road-ragers out there like that bh in Kingston in the Q7 who tried to kill the autistic guy.
There is such a huge difference between a mistake and a malicious act.
And if the police and CPS decided to 100% focus on the malicious stuff, I think I would probably be fine with that.
To be clear, I am not defending the van driver, SMIDSYs are very serious and KSI people all the time and we do want people to pay more attention BUT none of us are perfect and mistakes do happen.
Mistakes, while not excusable are understandable.
Trying to kill someone with your car is utterly reprehensible and NEVER understandable.
I am rabidly pro-cyclist but I am really not sure there is much point prosecuting here.
What grinds my gears are all the road-ragers out there like that b
h in Kingston in the Q7 who tried to kill the autistic guy.There is such a huge difference between a mistake and a malicious act.
And if the police and CPS decided to 100% focus on the malicious stuff, I think I would probably be fine with that.
To be clear, I am not defending the van driver, SMIDSYs are very serious and KSI people all the time and we do want people to pay more attention BUT none of us are perfect and mistakes do happen.
Mistakes, while not excusable are understandable.
Trying to kill someone with your car is utterly reprehensible and NEVER understandable.
ecsrobin said:
Whilst not wanting to defend the van driver but we are all too good at judging something from an outside perspective. We are watching a video from a 3rd person view and from that view it's clear the van is at fault.
Now put yourself in the seat of the van, is the cyclist blending it to the background? is there glare from the sun?
Certainly for me I nearly hit a cyclist the other day I came round a corner on a national limit road mid evening with trees covering the road. A lorry was coming the other way on a narrow stretch so I slowed down and moved to the left and at that moment I was shocked to see a cyclist all in black right in front of me!!! A bit more braking and I had avoided him and he was none the wiser (I think).
It shocked me quite a bit as I consider myself to be a very observant driver, but a lot of things added up to create a scenario where I could have hit him if that lorry wasn't there causing me to slow down. I believe it's often called the Swiss cheese model.
However it has made me realise I need to sort my riding kit out, all my jerseys are white or red but my rain jacket is black and I often where black shorts. So a new jacket is required for the bad weather and I'll certainly pay more attention in areas that are dark during the day as a cyclist is unlikely to be running lights.
The sun is to the left and slightly behind the van driver's line of sight. There are no shadows on the road and the cyclist is as visible as he could be expected to be, wearing light colours in bright sunshine.Now put yourself in the seat of the van, is the cyclist blending it to the background? is there glare from the sun?
Certainly for me I nearly hit a cyclist the other day I came round a corner on a national limit road mid evening with trees covering the road. A lorry was coming the other way on a narrow stretch so I slowed down and moved to the left and at that moment I was shocked to see a cyclist all in black right in front of me!!! A bit more braking and I had avoided him and he was none the wiser (I think).
It shocked me quite a bit as I consider myself to be a very observant driver, but a lot of things added up to create a scenario where I could have hit him if that lorry wasn't there causing me to slow down. I believe it's often called the Swiss cheese model.
However it has made me realise I need to sort my riding kit out, all my jerseys are white or red but my rain jacket is black and I often where black shorts. So a new jacket is required for the bad weather and I'll certainly pay more attention in areas that are dark during the day as a cyclist is unlikely to be running lights.
Perhaps the van driver argued that the cyclist was concealed by the other van...
In any event, par for the course: cyclist is second-class citizen.
Edited by IroningMan on Wednesday 11th June 09:45
IroningMan said:
In any event, par for the course: cyclist is second-class citizen.
I am not sure about that.If the van had hit a car would the police have bothered?
We don't know how injured the cyclist was. The police really don't care unless there is serious injury.
(Although I admit it looked pretty damn serious.)
I speak having been run off the road by an unobservant muppet (while I was in a car).
Frankly they cared far more about whether any of the street furniture was damaged.
I'm not trying to excuse the van driver, but have you lot heard of saccades?
http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyc...
The bike in the video is moving quite quickly across the scene, close to the front of the van, so the angle to view him is changing very rapidly. Coupled with the above, it's quite possible that the driver looked and didn't 'see' him.
http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyc...
The bike in the video is moving quite quickly across the scene, close to the front of the van, so the angle to view him is changing very rapidly. Coupled with the above, it's quite possible that the driver looked and didn't 'see' him.
trashbat said:
I'm not trying to excuse the van driver, but have you lot heard of saccades?
http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyc...
The bike in the video is moving quite quickly across the scene, close to the front of the van, so the angle to view him is changing very rapidly. Coupled with the above, it's quite possible that the driver looked and didn't 'see' him.
I am absolutely certain that the driver didn't do it deliberately. He didn't bother to look properly.http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyc...
The bike in the video is moving quite quickly across the scene, close to the front of the van, so the angle to view him is changing very rapidly. Coupled with the above, it's quite possible that the driver looked and didn't 'see' him.
I get it all the time on the bike - I can see a driver for several seconds yet they still pull out in front of you and are horrified that you/they are swerving to avoid a collision.
I believe this stems from laziness, that drivers just don;t bother to look properly. If you are driving a 2tonne metal object you should pay enough attention that you bother to properly look. I bet if I told him hos baby kid was about to cycle up that road he would have stopped, looked carefully and pulled out when he was certain. As it stands my guess is that he had a quick glance and pulled out assuming it was ok.
Pulling out with a quick glance is not acceptable and would fail a driving test and can have potentially serious/fatal consequences yet its done every second up and down the country.
What we need to instil in people is that, as linked above, having a quick glance, is not enough and you can easily miss something so remember the danger you are bringing in a car/van/lorry and check each manoeuvre is properly safe before attempting anything.
I don;t think this is too much to ask for, yet there's enough people on these pages when confronted just go, pah, accidents happen, get over it.
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