Family Businesses
Discussion
Does anyone here work in a family business, or used to? Do they ever really properly work if both parties (father/son) have completely different views on how 99% of things should be done?
I've worked for my dad for 10 years and the past few have been pretty bad if I'm honest. We sorted it out for a while (I quit last October, but agreed to stay after he changed and promised me profit shares etc - not seen any yet but that's another story...) now we seem to be hitting trouble again as he's trying to "sector" me into being an "employee" in a "job role", and I want to run the business, not be part of it. No offence to him, he's built a good company and made some respectable money but my opinion is that he should be working on the business not in it, and unfortunately I want to be doing the same but there's not room for both of us. He's already written a job advert for a new supervisor to carry out about 80% of the current work I do.......! He's asked me to consider the job role I want to do and he will get someone to do the stuff I "don't" want to do and will see if he can still "justify" keeping me on. With the additional supervisor, and him out of the picture (he wants to be there a lot less, conveniently as he's just about to open a shop) I can't help but feel he's trying to push me into a job role of an estimator, or push me out. Maybe I'm over-reacting, I can never really tell with him.
I work hard and have brought in almost as much work in this year as he has, whilst also managing all the staff and jobs, materials, technology, and a futile attempt at improving our marketing etc. (apologies to a certain PH member) especially as we were pretty much on the breadline until last week. Now he's "fixed" his money troubles I feel like I'm no longer needed/wanted. I have a few down falls but then who doesn't?
I have my own company which does okay for a sideline, but it doesn't cover my current outgoings and I have built up a bit of debt whilst renovating my house, which also still needs about £5k spent on it. I also have our first baby on the way due in just 13 weeks with a couple of grands worth of stuff left to buy (baby's aren't cheap!) so the timing isn't anywhere near right. I feel I could make a go of it alone, I guess I'm just lacking confidence and would admittedly feel a tonne better if I didn't have this debt looming over me. Half of my problem is that I'm not convinced I'm the right person for the type of industry we are in, but other than e-commerce I don't really know much else.
Is this only going to end one way?
I've worked for my dad for 10 years and the past few have been pretty bad if I'm honest. We sorted it out for a while (I quit last October, but agreed to stay after he changed and promised me profit shares etc - not seen any yet but that's another story...) now we seem to be hitting trouble again as he's trying to "sector" me into being an "employee" in a "job role", and I want to run the business, not be part of it. No offence to him, he's built a good company and made some respectable money but my opinion is that he should be working on the business not in it, and unfortunately I want to be doing the same but there's not room for both of us. He's already written a job advert for a new supervisor to carry out about 80% of the current work I do.......! He's asked me to consider the job role I want to do and he will get someone to do the stuff I "don't" want to do and will see if he can still "justify" keeping me on. With the additional supervisor, and him out of the picture (he wants to be there a lot less, conveniently as he's just about to open a shop) I can't help but feel he's trying to push me into a job role of an estimator, or push me out. Maybe I'm over-reacting, I can never really tell with him.
I work hard and have brought in almost as much work in this year as he has, whilst also managing all the staff and jobs, materials, technology, and a futile attempt at improving our marketing etc. (apologies to a certain PH member) especially as we were pretty much on the breadline until last week. Now he's "fixed" his money troubles I feel like I'm no longer needed/wanted. I have a few down falls but then who doesn't?
I have my own company which does okay for a sideline, but it doesn't cover my current outgoings and I have built up a bit of debt whilst renovating my house, which also still needs about £5k spent on it. I also have our first baby on the way due in just 13 weeks with a couple of grands worth of stuff left to buy (baby's aren't cheap!) so the timing isn't anywhere near right. I feel I could make a go of it alone, I guess I'm just lacking confidence and would admittedly feel a tonne better if I didn't have this debt looming over me. Half of my problem is that I'm not convinced I'm the right person for the type of industry we are in, but other than e-commerce I don't really know much else.
Is this only going to end one way?
Although you are related that really is a side issue. If you weren't things would, IMO, be little different. In my experience family businesses can work as well as or as badly as non family ones. For anyone in this situation I'd say have somewhere to move to before jumping. You did some good work on your sidelines and although one has recently faced some challenges there is potential in the other but it needs to be built up before you move, particularly in your situation. Yes, I do think you know where this is going but hold on for as long as you can until its 'safe' to move.
MrSparks said:
Is this only going to end one way?
If your business is the site on your profile, you have a nice looking, simple site.However, as someone who is a serious AV fan, I still wouldn't know where to start looking on your site.
At the moment, your site is signposted by solution, for example RS232, IR and so forth. That's easy categories for you, but for a viewer, not so much as the casual viewer won't want to read about all those technologies just to work out which one is right.
I would recommend a restructure based upon the most common reasons customers look to automation, so the questions are:
"How do I control my Sky Box when it's in a cabinet?"
"How can I watch my Blu-ray player and control it from every room"?
(Just rubbish examples, I'd recommend more generic/simple ones).
That'll make it easier for a home-installer to navigate, and it'll also be great for Google rankings as it will be these type of questions that are Googled.
Our family business is 101 years old this year.
Started by my Grandad and then after a while my father took it on.
He said that he wanted me to run it when I was 25. He tried to retire four times but just wouldn't let go.
I was 46 when I actually got control. He was signing cheques up until the day before he died.
Like you, I left (for four years) before he asked me to come back - and then he still just could not let go.
I bought out the other family members a few years back and now own and run it, assisted by my eldest son.
Whatever you do will never be good enough for your Dad and I am trying very hard to let go more and let my eldest son take on more.
I don't want to be like my Dad and really want to ease into retirement over the next year or so.
With todays technology, you can always still be available if your son needs you.
Equally, My father loved being a company Chairman, he simply could not fade into the background as the family business was his life.
Try not to be too hard on him....
Started by my Grandad and then after a while my father took it on.
He said that he wanted me to run it when I was 25. He tried to retire four times but just wouldn't let go.
I was 46 when I actually got control. He was signing cheques up until the day before he died.
Like you, I left (for four years) before he asked me to come back - and then he still just could not let go.
I bought out the other family members a few years back and now own and run it, assisted by my eldest son.
Whatever you do will never be good enough for your Dad and I am trying very hard to let go more and let my eldest son take on more.
I don't want to be like my Dad and really want to ease into retirement over the next year or so.
With todays technology, you can always still be available if your son needs you.
Equally, My father loved being a company Chairman, he simply could not fade into the background as the family business was his life.
Try not to be too hard on him....
Frimley111R said:
I believe it's mostly a B2B site where customers already know what they want, i.e they want a 'IST-122X-d', as opposed to someone like me looking for solution to a problem.
I did think that too - but the site states it is for DIY.My solution would be a DIY site focused around the common questions and then a trade site for the IST-122X-d thermocouples and external widgets.
On the OP's situation though, the family business mentality runs even up to the large businesses. My mate works in finance for one of the biggest traditional family businesses in the UK, and they are so set in their ways they haemorrhage money.
There are two sides to their business, one which traditionally only makes a loss, and will likely always not break even, but the family like it, which is held up by the profits of the more modern side.
JustinP1 said:
If your business is the site on your profile, you have a nice looking, simple site.
However, as someone who is a serious AV fan, I still wouldn't know where to start looking on your site.
At the moment, your site is signposted by solution, for example RS232, IR and so forth. That's easy categories for you, but for a viewer, not so much as the casual viewer won't want to read about all those technologies just to work out which one is right.
I would recommend a restructure based upon the most common reasons customers look to automation, so the questions are:
"How do I control my Sky Box when it's in a cabinet?"
"How can I watch my Blu-ray player and control it from every room"?
(Just rubbish examples, I'd recommend more generic/simple ones).
That'll make it easier for a home-installer to navigate, and it'll also be great for Google rankings as it will be these type of questions that are Googled.
My business started off with www.tech4homes.co.uk but I found the niche and was selling mostly Global Cache equipment, managed to bag the domain and started selling on there, originally the site was nice and simple, informative and aimed at people who knew what the kit was. It did well and didn't take any effort. Then I got involved with an agency (NOT the one mentioned above, the one mentioned in previous post is in a different league and much better!), changed the template, tried to target the wrong people, now the sites just a mess in my opinion and conversions/sales have dropped as a result (spent a lot of time this week comparing analytic metrics month to month, year to year etc and around key changes to the site). I am just getting new banners made, aimed at the right people and the template is being changed back to a nice simple, information based one (its on tech4homes.co.uk at the minute, but very half finished) I've got trade sections, technical guides and so on planned and will be targeting installers, specifiers and diyers. When I build it up further I want to get a "end user friendly" version made, but this is going to cost a bit to make it all easy to understand. I do still intend to do as you advise though and answer every question an installer could have which as you say will be good for google and for conversions.However, as someone who is a serious AV fan, I still wouldn't know where to start looking on your site.
At the moment, your site is signposted by solution, for example RS232, IR and so forth. That's easy categories for you, but for a viewer, not so much as the casual viewer won't want to read about all those technologies just to work out which one is right.
I would recommend a restructure based upon the most common reasons customers look to automation, so the questions are:
"How do I control my Sky Box when it's in a cabinet?"
"How can I watch my Blu-ray player and control it from every room"?
(Just rubbish examples, I'd recommend more generic/simple ones).
That'll make it easier for a home-installer to navigate, and it'll also be great for Google rankings as it will be these type of questions that are Googled.
My intentions are to do as you advise, but will do it on tech4homes.co.uk (which has been seriously ignored since last October), I want to make it a good source for diy home automation/technology aimed at diyers/end users so people can acheive high-end results for lower amounts. I need to put a lot more time into guides, advice sections, the right products etc. I have a great kitchen/bathroom audio range ready to go (trialed in my kitchen, best money ever spent!) I just need to start concentating on this more until I can afford to leave the day job, ironically I could have afforded it back in October when I quit, so as long as I get it back to that level before I fall out with my dad we'll be fine!
JustinP1 said:
I did think that too - but the site states it is for DIY.
My solution would be a DIY site focused around the common questions and then a trade site for the IST-122X-d thermocouples and external widgets.
Further to my reply above on this, you're completely right and this is all part of the miss-guided audience targeting, which will be changed back shortly.My solution would be a DIY site focused around the common questions and then a trade site for the IST-122X-d thermocouples and external widgets.
Davel said:
Our family business is 101 years old this year.
Started by my Grandad and then after a while my father took it on.
He said that he wanted me to run it when I was 25. He tried to retire four times but just wouldn't let go.
I was 46 when I actually got control. He was signing cheques up until the day before he died.
Like you, I left (for four years) before he asked me to come back - and then he still just could not let go.
I bought out the other family members a few years back and now own and run it, assisted by my eldest son.
Whatever you do will never be good enough for your Dad and I am trying very hard to let go more and let my eldest son take on more.
I don't want to be like my Dad and really want to ease into retirement over the next year or so.
With todays technology, you can always still be available if your son needs you.
Equally, My father loved being a company Chairman, he simply could not fade into the background as the family business was his life.
Try not to be too hard on him....
David,Started by my Grandad and then after a while my father took it on.
He said that he wanted me to run it when I was 25. He tried to retire four times but just wouldn't let go.
I was 46 when I actually got control. He was signing cheques up until the day before he died.
Like you, I left (for four years) before he asked me to come back - and then he still just could not let go.
I bought out the other family members a few years back and now own and run it, assisted by my eldest son.
Whatever you do will never be good enough for your Dad and I am trying very hard to let go more and let my eldest son take on more.
I don't want to be like my Dad and really want to ease into retirement over the next year or so.
With todays technology, you can always still be available if your son needs you.
Equally, My father loved being a company Chairman, he simply could not fade into the background as the family business was his life.
Try not to be too hard on him....
How do you feel working with your son? I only ask because, (I am your son,but working for my Mum).
Felt strange at the start and still does. However, four years on now, I am still here!
It feels fine but, as with most family businesses, fathers almost always expect more from their sons than with other members of the team.
Whatever you do as a son, it's rarely good enough.
I found that working for my Dad.
He wanted a Sales Manager not a son - and I was never that.
You both have to work at it...
Whatever you do as a son, it's rarely good enough.
I found that working for my Dad.
He wanted a Sales Manager not a son - and I was never that.
You both have to work at it...
Davel said:
It feels fine but, as with most family businesses, fathers almost always expect more from their sons than with other members of the team.
Whatever you do as a son, it's rarely good enough.
I found that working for my Dad.
He wanted a Sales Manager not a son - and I was never that.
You both have to work at it...
I think that this is a big part of the problem, he wants me to be everything I'm not (always has to be honest) he only notices/picks up on/remembers the things he doesn't like, and ignores everything else. Every time we've got to this point I've proved out right that I'm well worth my money then he backs off for a while until the next time. He's absolutely fine with me today after I pointed out I've actually won more work than him this year (so far - did the figures last night!). I shall wait and see what happens next.Whatever you do as a son, it's rarely good enough.
I found that working for my Dad.
He wanted a Sales Manager not a son - and I was never that.
You both have to work at it...
Bear in mind that he'll hate you achieving more than him.
It's him being reluctant to let go of control and is difficult for him to acknowledge.
We don't like being shown to be wrong!
I hate feeling that I'm getting older and getting behind with new ideas and technology.
I do accept it though.
The business may well be his life.
Of course, I may be well off the mark here.
It's him being reluctant to let go of control and is difficult for him to acknowledge.
We don't like being shown to be wrong!
I hate feeling that I'm getting older and getting behind with new ideas and technology.
I do accept it though.
The business may well be his life.
Of course, I may be well off the mark here.
Davel said:
Bear in mind that he'll hate you achieving more than him.
It's him being reluctant to let go of control and is difficult for him to acknowledge.
We don't like being shown to be wrong!
I hate feeling that I'm getting older and getting behind with new ideas and technology.
I do accept it though.
The business may well be his life.
Of course, I may be well off the mark here.
You couldn't be more on the mark if you tried. He has been very funny about my online activities since he found out about them especially as I was in a position to work for myself if I wanted, he is adamant he can put some stuff online and sell loads. He has just opened a shop (fitted out and doors open in 2 weeks time) he's currently getting a web shop built. I really hope he does well, but I also hope he sees e-commerce isn't as easy as putting something on the internet.It's him being reluctant to let go of control and is difficult for him to acknowledge.
We don't like being shown to be wrong!
I hate feeling that I'm getting older and getting behind with new ideas and technology.
I do accept it though.
The business may well be his life.
Of course, I may be well off the mark here.
He's never wrong by the way
I do understand him and try to work with him, but often feel that I don't get much back. Last month he's saying I'm underpaid and will get a pay rise soon, next he's doing things like I mentioned in my original post. Baffling. I'm really glad to know it's a fairly common family thing though and I'm trying not to take it too personally.Weird as I type this because I can see both sides.
Have been the son and am now the father - don't want to be the holy ghost though!
Just one other point as I have no idea as to your family's financial status but the business could be their future pension scheme. My father was paranoid that I'd run it into the ground and ruin his financial security for his old age. It might have a bearing on the reluctance to bow out.
Brought it all home a bit really.
Good luck...
Have been the son and am now the father - don't want to be the holy ghost though!
Just one other point as I have no idea as to your family's financial status but the business could be their future pension scheme. My father was paranoid that I'd run it into the ground and ruin his financial security for his old age. It might have a bearing on the reluctance to bow out.
Brought it all home a bit really.
Good luck...
Edited by Davel on Thursday 19th June 09:02
Unless I am construing things incorrectly it seems like your Dad is slightly 'scared' of your own abilities and entrepreneurship. Is there a way, perhaps, to just make a clean break and do you own thing with your own business? We are sorely mistaken if we believe that our fathers will be happy to see us take over their own businesses. Unfortunately times have changed and we do things differently. The things we do the same, in whatever businesses we choose, are usually about everyday human issues (customer is king, politeness, being professional, giving good service etc) and will move from business to business. But youngsters bring new and fresh ideas which older people may be scared of as it takes them out of their comfort zone.
Perhaps you should become his competition? Do your own thing and prove yourself (not that you have to but you also don't have to play to his tune). Dad's can be a nightmare as they always want to denigrate you for the perceived 'bad things' and are slow to praise for the good things.
Good luck fella.
Perhaps you should become his competition? Do your own thing and prove yourself (not that you have to but you also don't have to play to his tune). Dad's can be a nightmare as they always want to denigrate you for the perceived 'bad things' and are slow to praise for the good things.
Good luck fella.
I cant see the appeal of working in such a situation. All too often family firms are plan B for offspring that have gone off and made a hash of other things and come back when the family business starts looking like a better proposition.
In my old job I used to deal with a lot of family companies and even worked for one. The number of 35 year old chaps running round in big Audis but having no decision making power in their jobs was staggering.
Unless you just want the Audi it looks like a stifling and demeaning existence to me. Break away, prove yourself and if needs be go back into the family firm on your own terms.
In my old job I used to deal with a lot of family companies and even worked for one. The number of 35 year old chaps running round in big Audis but having no decision making power in their jobs was staggering.
Unless you just want the Audi it looks like a stifling and demeaning existence to me. Break away, prove yourself and if needs be go back into the family firm on your own terms.
fridaypassion said:
All too often family firms are plan B for offspring that have gone off and made a hash of other things and come back when the family business starts looking like a better proposition.
Four years after I had left, it was a telephone call to my office from my old man asking to meet up. We hadn't spoken for four years.He asked me to come back and take it over, so I wouldn't agree with that view.
There is plenty of research out there articulating the challenges of family business succession planning. There is also research suggesting that on average, family businesses begin declining after the third turn of the handle.
Plenty to read out there, including this from KPMG http://www.kpmgfamilybusiness.com/category/success...
Good luck!
Plenty to read out there, including this from KPMG http://www.kpmgfamilybusiness.com/category/success...
Good luck!
Davel said:
Our family business is 101 years old this year.
Started by my Grandad and then after a while my father took it on.
He said that he wanted me to run it when I was 25. He tried to retire four times but just wouldn't let go.
I was 46 when I actually got control. He was signing cheques up until the day before he died.
Like you, I left (for four years) before he asked me to come back - and then he still just could not let go.
I bought out the other family members a few years back and now own and run it, assisted by my eldest son.
Whatever you do will never be good enough for your Dad and I am trying very hard to let go more and let my eldest son take on more.
I don't want to be like my Dad and really want to ease into retirement over the next year or so.
With todays technology, you can always still be available if your son needs you.
Equally, My father loved being a company Chairman, he simply could not fade into the background as the family business was his life.
Try not to be too hard on him....
Echo this to be honest.Started by my Grandad and then after a while my father took it on.
He said that he wanted me to run it when I was 25. He tried to retire four times but just wouldn't let go.
I was 46 when I actually got control. He was signing cheques up until the day before he died.
Like you, I left (for four years) before he asked me to come back - and then he still just could not let go.
I bought out the other family members a few years back and now own and run it, assisted by my eldest son.
Whatever you do will never be good enough for your Dad and I am trying very hard to let go more and let my eldest son take on more.
I don't want to be like my Dad and really want to ease into retirement over the next year or so.
With todays technology, you can always still be available if your son needs you.
Equally, My father loved being a company Chairman, he simply could not fade into the background as the family business was his life.
Try not to be too hard on him....
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