996 C4S as daily.. too old ? too risky?
Discussion
So I've had my Cayman S for a little over a year, and I want a 911. Yes I know Cayman is perhaps a better car (let's not go there), but I do need a little seat in the back for a kid now. So 911 seems like the natural progression - to be honest I've driven a E90 m3, didn't like it, megane 265, C63 amg - sure but too pricey, etc.. I don't want a Turbo because it's literally too fast for a daily and not cheap to run. So, 996 C4S caught my eye because of the looks and price range.
So the question is - due to the m96/97 engine malarkey (not sure if i got that right), will a high 50k miler 996 a big risk or pretty much the same as the cayman ? any downsides compared to the cayman which will make it worse as a daily?
So the question is - due to the m96/97 engine malarkey (not sure if i got that right), will a high 50k miler 996 a big risk or pretty much the same as the cayman ? any downsides compared to the cayman which will make it worse as a daily?
if funds would allow get the turbo;
I never really got the 4S - it's the slowest in the 996 range;
You can control the speed with your right foot you know?!
The turbo has the Mezger engine - much more robust than the 'normal' 996 engine;
not sure how they compare finically though
just my 2p
I never really got the 4S - it's the slowest in the 996 range;
You can control the speed with your right foot you know?!
The turbo has the Mezger engine - much more robust than the 'normal' 996 engine;
not sure how they compare finically though
just my 2p
red997 said:
if funds would allow get the turbo;
I never really got the 4S - it's the slowest in the 996 range;
You can control the speed with your right foot you know?!
The turbo has the Mezger engine - much more robust than the 'normal' 996 engine;
not sure how they compare finically though
just my 2p
Pretty much what he said /\/\/\/\I never really got the 4S - it's the slowest in the 996 range;
You can control the speed with your right foot you know?!
The turbo has the Mezger engine - much more robust than the 'normal' 996 engine;
not sure how they compare finically though
just my 2p
Just like any car, a Turbo is only as fast as you make it go with your right foot.
Just do a search on here and elsewhere for the usual things to look for when buying. Make sure the obvious jobs are complete and the running costs should be similar to a C4S.
I had a C2 5 years back, then moved straight into my current Turbo. Very similar car to the Carrera's, they just has a s
t load more shove when your in the mood.No difference really in running costs on a Turbo v C4S.
Both have the same brakes/suspension/tyres.
Servicing might be slightly more
Fuel wise not a lot in it
As said the the Turbo has the right engine without the normal NA issues.
As mentioned a car is as fast as you want it to go, my Turbo has 550 BHP doesn't mean i drive it like i stole everytime i venture out in it, to be honest i drive my daily faster.
Both have the same brakes/suspension/tyres.
Servicing might be slightly more
Fuel wise not a lot in it
As said the the Turbo has the right engine without the normal NA issues.
As mentioned a car is as fast as you want it to go, my Turbo has 550 BHP doesn't mean i drive it like i stole everytime i venture out in it, to be honest i drive my daily faster.
Turbo has the Mezger engine with less issues but will cost more to run. C4S would make a great daily driver, a C2 would make an even better one but doesn't look quite as good.
Keep a few £K put aside just in case & budget around £2.5k pa to run.
Oh, make sure it has PSE, my C2 doesn't & it makes me sick every time I hear one that does
Keep a few £K put aside just in case & budget around £2.5k pa to run.
Oh, make sure it has PSE, my C2 doesn't & it makes me sick every time I hear one that does
red997 said:
I never really got the 4S - it's the slowest in the 996 range;
On the other hand it's a pretty damn quick A-B car along twisty roads, especially if wet. Easier to drive fast than a standard C2 for a negligible loss in straight line acceleration. Plus it looks a fair bit better too.Personally I don't see the point of the Turbo for everyday driving, but very nice all the same.
I'd take the risk on a 996 C4S, but be careful choosing one!
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Out if interest, how much does it cost to weld all of the coolant pipes on the turbo engine?
Is this something that is becoming more commonplace with age of these cars?
It is an engine out job and then there is the welding which is farmed out most likely. You want a premier welding shop to do the welding.Is this something that is becoming more commonplace with age of these cars?
In the USA some indy specialists for these engines just advise a pinning and a regluing (epoxying) of the coolant pipes. You still have the drop the engine but there is no welding involved. While I have an 03 Turbo (with 128K miles) I'm not sure which way I'd go if this problem popped up. The pinning seems to help keep the problem from happening, which suggests it is vibration/movement/stress at this points that contributes to their failing. This sort of makes sense as tracked car engines would experience higher g-forces, higher stress on these pipes.
Oh, commonplace? Well, one reads about it and it seems rather commonplace but my info is it most common with tracked cars. Street driven cars while not entirely immune seem very less likely to develop this problem. I'm not sure what role mileage/time plays... will every street car need this "fix" eventually? Can't say.
Up to the owner I guess. If the owner wants to be proactive, if there is perhaps something else going on that can be done in parallel with the engine drop to address the coolant pipes, and do this before any signs of a problem, that's the owner's call.
cvega said:
So I've had my Cayman S for a little over a year, and I want a 911. Yes I know Cayman is perhaps a better car (let's not go there), but I do need a little seat in the back for a kid now. So 911 seems like the natural progression - to be honest I've driven a E90 m3, didn't like it, megane 265, C63 amg - sure but too pricey, etc.. I don't want a Turbo because it's literally too fast for a daily and not cheap to run. So, 996 C4S caught my eye because of the looks and price range.
So the question is - due to the m96/97 engine malarkey (not sure if i got that right), will a high 50k miler 996 a big risk or pretty much the same as the cayman ? any downsides compared to the cayman which will make it worse as a daily?
Generally the simpler the car the better suited it is for daily use. Less things to wear out, develop problems, cheaper running costs. Quicker to get repaired/serviced and back on the road.So the question is - due to the m96/97 engine malarkey (not sure if i got that right), will a high 50k miler 996 a big risk or pretty much the same as the cayman ? any downsides compared to the cayman which will make it worse as a daily?
If you need a rear seat that the 911 offers my advice would be to seek out the best Carrera 911 (996/997) model you can find, one with the must have options (for me off the top of my head: auto climate A/C, cruise control, OBC, rear window wiper; the AWD feature not so much) and buy and use that for your daily driver.
It will have the lowest running costs. It will depreciate the least as it starts out (probably) costing you less to begin with.
For my primary daily driver I have an 02 Boxster. It has proved to be an exceptional daily driver (and long distance tourer too) over the years and miles (currently at just over 280K miles).
BTW, I have an 03 Turbo and have used it for a daily driver -- when my usual daily driver is in the shop (or I need to carry a passenger and his or her wheel chair) -- and it is ok for this, but the low air dam makes pulling into and out of parking lots/driveways an adventure to avoid tearing the thing off. The rear tires love nails. Around town driving gas mileage sucks. And the car was new a $120K car and it costs like the dickens to service/repair. Dealer charges me the same labor rate as it charges a brand new car.
Around town the Turbo is a bit ponderous only really coming into its natural element on the open road. I bought it for use as a GT planning to save it mainly for long road trips and the occasional work commute (60 miles round trip) but due to circumstances beyond my control it has served more as a taxi cab the last couple of years.
Turbo running costs can be high. Gas mileage. Tires. I get 20K miles from the rears and double that from the fronts but at around 20K miles per year I'm doing the rear tires on an annual basis. Servicing costs are a bit high. Plugs need doing IIRC every 24K miles or a bit over once a year with my mileage. Then there have been the issues outside of warranty: RMS:. Water pump. Front differential axle flange seals (which is why I would advise you to avoid an AWD until you are sure you need it). Spoiler. Idler roller bearings. Power steering high pressure bypass valve. ($1000 to replace.)
Brake wear warning light comes on once in a while and the tech says the front brakes are due. $1000+ parts and a couple of hours of labor. (Brake life has been good though. The brake light just started coming on at around 128K miles and the brakes are original.)
Oh, the Turbo engine. While it is free of the IMSB concern it is not bullet proof. (However, I will admit I do not lie awake at night worrying about the Turbo's engine.)
Then there are the turbos. These can act up and require a rebuild or a replacement. I thankfully have no direct experience with turbo troubles but they cost like anything is what I've heard, been told, and read.
You can of course elect to get a Turbo. But give the plain old 911 a consideration to for daily use.
As an aside, the best daily driver I can recall having was an 02 VW Golf TDi 5-speed. Exceptional fuel mileage (40+mpg over 120K miles of use). Good ride with 15" wheels/tires and tire life was 40K miles or more and then they were not very expensive (relatively speaking) to replace. The factory fitted tires worked good in all kinds of weather, even snow (as long as they had plenty of tread). Good view out. Plenty of space for 4 adults. Plenty of cargo room. Full size spare!
May not be as sexy as a Turbo, a 911, even a Boxster, but an exceptional daily driver nonetheless.
Rockster said:
cvega said:
So I've had my Cayman S for a little over a year, and I want a 911. Yes I know Cayman is perhaps a better car (let's not go there), but I do need a little seat in the back for a kid now. So 911 seems like the natural progression - to be honest I've driven a E90 m3, didn't like it, megane 265, C63 amg - sure but too pricey, etc.. I don't want a Turbo because it's literally too fast for a daily and not cheap to run. So, 996 C4S caught my eye because of the looks and price range.
So the question is - due to the m96/97 engine malarkey (not sure if i got that right), will a high 50k miler 996 a big risk or pretty much the same as the cayman ? any downsides compared to the cayman which will make it worse as a daily?
Generally the simpler the car the better suited it is for daily use. Less things to wear out, develop problems, cheaper running costs. Quicker to get repaired/serviced and back on the road.So the question is - due to the m96/97 engine malarkey (not sure if i got that right), will a high 50k miler 996 a big risk or pretty much the same as the cayman ? any downsides compared to the cayman which will make it worse as a daily?
If you need a rear seat that the 911 offers my advice would be to seek out the best Carrera 911 (996/997) model you can find, one with the must have options (for me off the top of my head: auto climate A/C, cruise control, OBC, rear window wiper; the AWD feature not so much) and buy and use that for your daily driver.
It will have the lowest running costs. It will depreciate the least as it starts out (probably) costing you less to begin with.
For my primary daily driver I have an 02 Boxster. It has proved to be an exceptional daily driver (and long distance tourer too) over the years and miles (currently at just over 280K miles).
BTW, I have an 03 Turbo and have used it for a daily driver -- when my usual daily driver is in the shop (or I need to carry a passenger and his or her wheel chair) -- and it is ok for this, but the low air dam makes pulling into and out of parking lots/driveways an adventure to avoid tearing the thing off. The rear tires love nails. Around town driving gas mileage sucks. And the car was new a $120K car and it costs like the dickens to service/repair. Dealer charges me the same labor rate as it charges a brand new car.
Around town the Turbo is a bit ponderous only really coming into its natural element on the open road. I bought it for use as a GT planning to save it mainly for long road trips and the occasional work commute (60 miles round trip) but due to circumstances beyond my control it has served more as a taxi cab the last couple of years.
Turbo running costs can be high. Gas mileage. Tires. I get 20K miles from the rears and double that from the fronts but at around 20K miles per year I'm doing the rear tires on an annual basis. Servicing costs are a bit high. Plugs need doing IIRC every 24K miles or a bit over once a year with my mileage. Then there have been the issues outside of warranty: RMS:. Water pump. Front differential axle flange seals (which is why I would advise you to avoid an AWD until you are sure you need it). Spoiler. Idler roller bearings. Power steering high pressure bypass valve. ($1000 to replace.)
Brake wear warning light comes on once in a while and the tech says the front brakes are due. $1000+ parts and a couple of hours of labor. (Brake life has been good though. The brake light just started coming on at around 128K miles and the brakes are original.)
Oh, the Turbo engine. While it is free of the IMSB concern it is not bullet proof. (However, I will admit I do not lie awake at night worrying about the Turbo's engine.)
Then there are the turbos. These can act up and require a rebuild or a replacement. I thankfully have no direct experience with turbo troubles but they cost like anything is what I've heard, been told, and read.
You can of course elect to get a Turbo. But give the plain old 911 a consideration to for daily use.
As an aside, the best daily driver I can recall having was an 02 VW Golf TDi 5-speed. Exceptional fuel mileage (40+mpg over 120K miles of use). Good ride with 15" wheels/tires and tire life was 40K miles or more and then they were not very expensive (relatively speaking) to replace. The factory fitted tires worked good in all kinds of weather, even snow (as long as they had plenty of tread). Good view out. Plenty of space for 4 adults. Plenty of cargo room. Full size spare!
May not be as sexy as a Turbo, a 911, even a Boxster, but an exceptional daily driver nonetheless.
Been running a 996 C2 as a daily for 6 years, started on 52k now on 119k. No major issues bar stuff that needed fixing due to wear and tear.
Changed the IMS bearing thingy at around 80k I think (cant remember!) and it apparently was in fine shape anyway.
Clutch, master cylinder, air maf sensor, occasional window mechanism fix during freezing weather, broken stereo, exhaust, thats about it really, nothing costing me silly money.
On the other hand I know someone who has a 996 turbo and whilst it may have a more robust engine, everything on there just seems to cost a damn site more to fix on it when it does go wrong - that plus he has bigger tyres and wheels on it.
Noticed recently that sellers seem to be asking quite a bit for a low mileage 996 C4S too these days - do you think they will end up costing more than a bog standard C2 997 with the same mileage in the near future?
Changed the IMS bearing thingy at around 80k I think (cant remember!) and it apparently was in fine shape anyway.
Clutch, master cylinder, air maf sensor, occasional window mechanism fix during freezing weather, broken stereo, exhaust, thats about it really, nothing costing me silly money.
On the other hand I know someone who has a 996 turbo and whilst it may have a more robust engine, everything on there just seems to cost a damn site more to fix on it when it does go wrong - that plus he has bigger tyres and wheels on it.
Noticed recently that sellers seem to be asking quite a bit for a low mileage 996 C4S too these days - do you think they will end up costing more than a bog standard C2 997 with the same mileage in the near future?
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