What is this very special Essex V6 I had for free?
Discussion
Yesterday I received a very special Essex V6 and I was hoping some of you could give me some advice.
First of all, it's a non-runner. The thread on which te oil filter should be mounted, has broken off, and someone has clearly tryed to get the remains out, but that didn't work. Then there's also a hole in each side of the engine, which has been poorly repaired with what i believe is epoxy putty. Also, in the bottom of the timing cover is another hole. Half of the distributor is missing.
Now, the good stuff:
-the heads have a 46mm inlet valve and a 43,5mm(!?) exhaust valve, they have screw in rocker studs (2 of 12 are missing) and double valve springs. The inlet ports are quite a bit larger than standard, and are polished. Rockers show first signs of wear, nearly no rust in coolant channels. Overall, the heads seem to be in a nearly new condition
-it came with a triple DCNF port matched inlet manifold. Someone has drilled a +/- 10mm hole in each inlet duct. Too small for injectors, so I have no clue why they are there.
-I can feel the timing gear through the hole in the cover, and it is definately metal. Can't see 'em so don't whether it's steel or aluminium
-the engine has been dry sumped. Only the sump itself is included
-haven't measured valve opening, but cam looks wild as hell, for as far as it's visible at this point.
-I have been told that the engine has a billet steel crank. Will try to measure stroke in the next few days.
-It has the nicest finned alloy rocker covers I've ever seen.
I also have a 1971 Tuscan V6 which I frequently use for commuting and loud sunday mornings. I suspect the original (oval port) engine to suffer from bore wash due to the 40DFAV (excessive fueling when cold). I converted it to type-9 5-speed 4-5 years ago, and it seems it can't cope with all the violence of the standard engine, as it's leaking oil from the input shaft region.
My intention is to build a good fast road engine, mated to a better gearbox (T5?) and keep the original as a spare. What are your ideas?
First of all, it's a non-runner. The thread on which te oil filter should be mounted, has broken off, and someone has clearly tryed to get the remains out, but that didn't work. Then there's also a hole in each side of the engine, which has been poorly repaired with what i believe is epoxy putty. Also, in the bottom of the timing cover is another hole. Half of the distributor is missing.
Now, the good stuff:
-the heads have a 46mm inlet valve and a 43,5mm(!?) exhaust valve, they have screw in rocker studs (2 of 12 are missing) and double valve springs. The inlet ports are quite a bit larger than standard, and are polished. Rockers show first signs of wear, nearly no rust in coolant channels. Overall, the heads seem to be in a nearly new condition
-it came with a triple DCNF port matched inlet manifold. Someone has drilled a +/- 10mm hole in each inlet duct. Too small for injectors, so I have no clue why they are there.
-I can feel the timing gear through the hole in the cover, and it is definately metal. Can't see 'em so don't whether it's steel or aluminium
-the engine has been dry sumped. Only the sump itself is included
-haven't measured valve opening, but cam looks wild as hell, for as far as it's visible at this point.
-I have been told that the engine has a billet steel crank. Will try to measure stroke in the next few days.
-It has the nicest finned alloy rocker covers I've ever seen.
I also have a 1971 Tuscan V6 which I frequently use for commuting and loud sunday mornings. I suspect the original (oval port) engine to suffer from bore wash due to the 40DFAV (excessive fueling when cold). I converted it to type-9 5-speed 4-5 years ago, and it seems it can't cope with all the violence of the standard engine, as it's leaking oil from the input shaft region.
My intention is to build a good fast road engine, mated to a better gearbox (T5?) and keep the original as a spare. What are your ideas?
nwarner said:
71tuscan said:
Someone has drilled a +/- 10mm hole in each inlet duct. Too small for injectors, so I have no clue why they are there.
Maybe for an LPG conversion.Do the holes in the engine's side look as though they were caused by escaping rods? May want to look into replacing the block, unless you feel that its holiness contributes to its rarity. You could have it welded, but would have to have crank and cam journals line-bored, and the decks machined flat/perpendicular. On the third hand, you will do those same operations when blueprinting a seasoned block. Check prices.
Best,
B.
P.S. And congratulations, nice freebie.
LPG conversion seems very unlikely. I also heard someone tryed or did supercharge/turbocharge it.
Haven't measured yet, but the CR looks fairly low, while the double valve springs indicate 7k+ rpm, so I think this must have been a turbocharged racing engine. I also know the engine sat in a late 70s LHD Taimar widebody, which is a very,rare car.
If the engine was turbocharged, could those holes have been used for measuring pressure?
Vacuum would indeed make sense if it was N/A.
Still, the exhaust valves are exceptionally big (37mm standard I believe), and I was wondering whether it would make a difference if a turbo must be powered by the exhaust gasses?
Would the heads in that case be suitable for NA road use?
Given the location of the holes in the block, they could well be caused by a broken rod, but they are only about 1 inch large, with no visible cracks around them. If they were caused by a broken rod, i guess they would have been bigger.
They are more or less aligned with cylinder nr3, so in the next few days I'll have that head and the sump off, to give it a check.
Will also check for numbers on block and heads, someone on PH might know more about that.
I don't necessarily want to keep the block itself, unless it is indeed something special.
Haven't measured yet, but the CR looks fairly low, while the double valve springs indicate 7k+ rpm, so I think this must have been a turbocharged racing engine. I also know the engine sat in a late 70s LHD Taimar widebody, which is a very,rare car.
If the engine was turbocharged, could those holes have been used for measuring pressure?
Vacuum would indeed make sense if it was N/A.
Still, the exhaust valves are exceptionally big (37mm standard I believe), and I was wondering whether it would make a difference if a turbo must be powered by the exhaust gasses?
Would the heads in that case be suitable for NA road use?
Given the location of the holes in the block, they could well be caused by a broken rod, but they are only about 1 inch large, with no visible cracks around them. If they were caused by a broken rod, i guess they would have been bigger.
They are more or less aligned with cylinder nr3, so in the next few days I'll have that head and the sump off, to give it a check.
Will also check for numbers on block and heads, someone on PH might know more about that.
I don't necessarily want to keep the block itself, unless it is indeed something special.
S'pose it might have had water injection. The added holes could have been fo that. Are they perpendicular to the air flow, or angled?
I don't know my way around those engines, but the only block I know of, that is appreciably different, is the GA one.
In so far as using an engine for the street, that was originally built for the track, is concerned, there are two things i'd look at.
1.) Factors that are simple to change.
2.) Factors that may require more effort to alter (mostly because of research required).
Under category 1, I'd group variables that are easy to control, during your builkd-up. Thing$ like cam profile, compression ratio, and similar, simple basics.
Under category 2, I would do some research, an push the race compromises towatd durability. Look at how much distance there is, between the valves, valve stem diameters, legth of guide in the port, . . . essrntially, design features that are acceptable, in an engine that's rebuilt every season.
You could always do a rough calculation of how mamy running hours you'd expect to see in a racing season, and another, for a weekend car. That'd give you a guideline, for how long you could safely run it.
Best,
B.
P.S. Whose Taimar wasit reputed to have lived in, or what car? Can you say?
I don't know my way around those engines, but the only block I know of, that is appreciably different, is the GA one.
In so far as using an engine for the street, that was originally built for the track, is concerned, there are two things i'd look at.
1.) Factors that are simple to change.
2.) Factors that may require more effort to alter (mostly because of research required).
Under category 1, I'd group variables that are easy to control, during your builkd-up. Thing$ like cam profile, compression ratio, and similar, simple basics.
Under category 2, I would do some research, an push the race compromises towatd durability. Look at how much distance there is, between the valves, valve stem diameters, legth of guide in the port, . . . essrntially, design features that are acceptable, in an engine that's rebuilt every season.
You could always do a rough calculation of how mamy running hours you'd expect to see in a racing season, and another, for a weekend car. That'd give you a guideline, for how long you could safely run it.
Best,
B.
P.S. Whose Taimar wasit reputed to have lived in, or what car? Can you say?
It came from this car:
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C511387
..and its story is pretty much there.
The mileage mentioned is correct. I have seen the car a few years ago pre-resto, when the engine had just been taken out.
Mileage must have been 2k-ish iirc. Don't know who was the original owner though.
Water injection is most likely I guess. Holes are drilled exactly vertical in the middle of the inlet ducts.
If it were to be turbocharged, cooling must have been a big concern, and water injection could be an easy solution in that case.
With valves that big, there is indeed very few metal left around the valves.
Bore diameter minus both valve diameters leaves only 3-4mm.
In between the valves there's only 1-2mm left.
It is not only the durability that worries me, but also the character. Anyone know what power band a mild cam and big valves would result in?
I don't want to make to many sacrifices in the low and mid-range torque, but a bit more top-end power would be nice.
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C511387
..and its story is pretty much there.
The mileage mentioned is correct. I have seen the car a few years ago pre-resto, when the engine had just been taken out.
Mileage must have been 2k-ish iirc. Don't know who was the original owner though.
Water injection is most likely I guess. Holes are drilled exactly vertical in the middle of the inlet ducts.
If it were to be turbocharged, cooling must have been a big concern, and water injection could be an easy solution in that case.
With valves that big, there is indeed very few metal left around the valves.
Bore diameter minus both valve diameters leaves only 3-4mm.
In between the valves there's only 1-2mm left.
It is not only the durability that worries me, but also the character. Anyone know what power band a mild cam and big valves would result in?
I don't want to make to many sacrifices in the low and mid-range torque, but a bit more top-end power would be nice.
How (apart the wording in an advert) is THAT engine to the TVR related to THAT TVR (there is not one owner that I have spoken to that has not thought about Turbo'ing their TVR at some point!) which is advertised with it's own engine.
Adrian@
As far as I can see it anything that is free is good...keep the good bits and speak to an engine man that MIGHT want to use anything that YOU THINK is good, (he most likely will not).
Adrian@
Adrian@
As far as I can see it anything that is free is good...keep the good bits and speak to an engine man that MIGHT want to use anything that YOU THINK is good, (he most likely will not).
Adrian@
Are you thinking of continuing with a turbocharged set-up? Either way, I know a couple of people who may be able (read: willing) and are experienced in setting up this type of specification. They may come up with suggestions for you. Would you be willing to go with a decent engine management system?
Robert, are you out there? I will also check with my brother.
Best,
B.
Robert, are you out there? I will also check with my brother.
Best,
B.
Adrian,
I know the guy who did the resto (Mr DG, not David Gerald) and the enthusiast who commisioned the resto (Mr. MP)
I also know he took out that engine out of that car, but I have absolutely no clue who did the mods or who was the owner.
Perhaps I can try to contact MP and ask who he bought the car from.
Turbocharging is not on my list, because I'd rather have less power than living with the annoying sound and power delivery of that setup.
As for rebuild costs, there aren't too many sources on the continent, and shipping a 7000kg engine back to the UK might be more expensive than letting a UK specialist start from scratch. Then I can still fit those awesome valve covers and sell the rest of the goodies.
Heads and crank might still be worth something, but then again, the demand for that is also very small on the continent.
If it only needs a good bottom end with the right cam, I'd rather fit those heads as well and might go triple DCNF or ITBs with fuel injection. Electronic ignition would also be on my list.
I know the guy who did the resto (Mr DG, not David Gerald) and the enthusiast who commisioned the resto (Mr. MP)
I also know he took out that engine out of that car, but I have absolutely no clue who did the mods or who was the owner.
Perhaps I can try to contact MP and ask who he bought the car from.
Turbocharging is not on my list, because I'd rather have less power than living with the annoying sound and power delivery of that setup.
As for rebuild costs, there aren't too many sources on the continent, and shipping a 7000kg engine back to the UK might be more expensive than letting a UK specialist start from scratch. Then I can still fit those awesome valve covers and sell the rest of the goodies.
Heads and crank might still be worth something, but then again, the demand for that is also very small on the continent.
If it only needs a good bottom end with the right cam, I'd rather fit those heads as well and might go triple DCNF or ITBs with fuel injection. Electronic ignition would also be on my list.
SO..the VERY genuine 4498KM mile car is NOT as genuine as it seems, OR (it does say in the advert that ...this seems to be unbelievable), you have the engine OR it is an unrelated engine, that the restorer and owner will tell you that it is UN-related to the actual car (as I asked ...how is it related), SO that it does not make the advert a little shady! BUT THEN the build log on the car has the engine number.
Adrian@
Nice free rocker covers for your car though, BUT then that depends on how the casting is milled out on the faces to accept an O ring gasket system or the more common flat face version that NEVER seal.
Adrian@
Nice free rocker covers for your car though, BUT then that depends on how the casting is milled out on the faces to accept an O ring gasket system or the more common flat face version that NEVER seal.
Edited by Adrian@ on Saturday 21st June 18:16
Björn,
I asked my brother about running some variations through the Software he uses (Engine Analyzer). He said it isn't that great at simulating turbocharged engines.
He did recommend, that you have a look at a company called Turbos Direct, and talk to Mike Merrell.
Apparently, there's a good buzz about them. Good customer reviews about spool-up time, nice compressor maps, and other things I barely grasp. They do a ball bearing Garrett, which is more durable than the old plain bearing ones.
Best,
B.
I asked my brother about running some variations through the Software he uses (Engine Analyzer). He said it isn't that great at simulating turbocharged engines.
He did recommend, that you have a look at a company called Turbos Direct, and talk to Mike Merrell.
Apparently, there's a good buzz about them. Good customer reviews about spool-up time, nice compressor maps, and other things I barely grasp. They do a ball bearing Garrett, which is more durable than the old plain bearing ones.
Best,
B.
Had a quick look today and now I can't believe it was ever turbocharged at all.
It indeed has a billet steel crank, but the stroke is the same as OEM.
Capacity is regular 3,0.
Compression ratio, however, must be somewhere around 10,5:1, maybe even 11:1, which imho is completly unsuitable for forced induction.
Valve lift is 13,5 mm.
Cam shows a little wear, but valves do all have the same lift.
Bores look impeccable.
Exact valve sizes are 44,2mm inlet and 41,8 exhaust, which is still a mystery to me.
Rockers are worn, some even lost 0,3mm of material where they touch the valve stems.
The hole in the side of the block is not in the same plane as the conrods, so i doubt it was the result of a failure.
Dry sump is clearly a diy conversion by someone whose welding skills were rather bubble gum style.
If I can repair the oil filter spindle, I'd be tempted to give this setup a chance, but I'm afraid it will have a very racy character with little low end grunt.
Anyway, for me this is all one big gamble, so I'd better speak to a specialist first.
It indeed has a billet steel crank, but the stroke is the same as OEM.
Capacity is regular 3,0.
Compression ratio, however, must be somewhere around 10,5:1, maybe even 11:1, which imho is completly unsuitable for forced induction.
Valve lift is 13,5 mm.
Cam shows a little wear, but valves do all have the same lift.
Bores look impeccable.
Exact valve sizes are 44,2mm inlet and 41,8 exhaust, which is still a mystery to me.
Rockers are worn, some even lost 0,3mm of material where they touch the valve stems.
The hole in the side of the block is not in the same plane as the conrods, so i doubt it was the result of a failure.
Dry sump is clearly a diy conversion by someone whose welding skills were rather bubble gum style.
If I can repair the oil filter spindle, I'd be tempted to give this setup a chance, but I'm afraid it will have a very racy character with little low end grunt.
Anyway, for me this is all one big gamble, so I'd better speak to a specialist first.
Oh, and the carb bolt pattern is not DCNF. They enlarged the holes where a DCNF is usually mounted to 12mm with no thread cut in it, and there were new mounting points drilled and tapped for something else than a DCNF
I can fill the holes and drill/cut new thread, to mount DCNFs or DCNF style ITBs.
I can fill the holes and drill/cut new thread, to mount DCNFs or DCNF style ITBs.
Bjorn, Adrian,
I know this car rather well, and am very well positioned to confirm that this mileage is accurate ! The first owner bought this car with a standard 3.0 essex. He than handed the car over to a local 'specialist' to have a turbocharger added to the engine. I took them several years and a lot of 'trial and error' developing the engine, only to put the car away in some forgotten corner of a barn and it literally never moved again. Until the owner died and his wife sold some of his cars. I was bought by a fellow TVR enthousiast from Waterloo (B) who sold it on to mr MP. I removed the engine that now ended up in you garage (Bjorn) and replaced it with a 40.000 km (or so) engine that turns over really well. I could tell you some more on other modifications that were done to the car, but that would only lead us away from the original topic, wouldn't it? The only thing I know for sure is that they never got the engine running properly with the turbo and they just abandoned the project !
Rgds
Dirk
I know this car rather well, and am very well positioned to confirm that this mileage is accurate ! The first owner bought this car with a standard 3.0 essex. He than handed the car over to a local 'specialist' to have a turbocharger added to the engine. I took them several years and a lot of 'trial and error' developing the engine, only to put the car away in some forgotten corner of a barn and it literally never moved again. Until the owner died and his wife sold some of his cars. I was bought by a fellow TVR enthousiast from Waterloo (B) who sold it on to mr MP. I removed the engine that now ended up in you garage (Bjorn) and replaced it with a 40.000 km (or so) engine that turns over really well. I could tell you some more on other modifications that were done to the car, but that would only lead us away from the original topic, wouldn't it? The only thing I know for sure is that they never got the engine running properly with the turbo and they just abandoned the project !
Rgds
Dirk
As TVR Turbo's are one of my Specialty subjects, I could add more information, but none of it 'real' fact, just dealings with people over the phone, trying to resolve issues, from a time gone by...The SE spec. on the car then puts the car into a 'place and time' that made me remember the car, it is nice to see it back on the road...the odometer read maybe real.
IMHO I would like to think that the time and energy/expenditure/invoices that goes with the failed turbo conversion are with the car (I know that I can see the way that the previous owner of my own Taimar Turbo failed with several 'specialists' prior to me getting involved with the car and me then purchasing it) AND, as this is the cars 'real history' a much more interesting one than any odometer reading!.
Adrian@
IMHO I would like to think that the time and energy/expenditure/invoices that goes with the failed turbo conversion are with the car (I know that I can see the way that the previous owner of my own Taimar Turbo failed with several 'specialists' prior to me getting involved with the car and me then purchasing it) AND, as this is the cars 'real history' a much more interesting one than any odometer reading!.
Adrian@
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