car worse after service - your thoughts please
Discussion
Hi all - will try and keep it short, but would like to hear your thoughts.
I have an 03 plate Audi A3 1.9tdi (130). Owned from new and now has 180k miles. Booked in for a cam belt, new thermostat and to change gearbox oil.
Went to a well respected VAG specialist in the area.
Notice on the drive home, car is hesitating under full load. Fine on light throttle, no missing or anything.
Phoned them and took it back to check. They did and came back to say nothing they did (including jet washing the engine bay, despite me saying beforehand not to wash it). They think it's co-incidence and the sign of an injector that is starting to fail.
I told them I didn't accept that it was nothing to do with them, as it was running 100% fine (incl under full load, up to red line). Spoke to the manager and he had a look over it and went out on a drive.
He says they checked the plug where the wiring loom plugs in and it was bone dry, so it's not to do with the jet wash. Also he says it's not the timing, as it runs fine under light throttle. He says sometimes when they make a car run better, it brings hidden faults to light. Also that they have to re-set the ECU and maybe it had 'learned' to cope with minor faults in the past, so the re-set brought it to light.
He also said as part of his test, he disconnected the MAF sensor and apparently this didn't bring on the engine management warning light, so someone has obviously disconnected this in the past-by removing the clocks. Now I have had it since new and that's never happened, to my knowledge.
The upshot is that it's still nothing they've done. He thinks the wiring loom is going, so suggests replacing this. But as goodwill, only charge reduced labout while doing this. If the new loom is no better, they'll put the old loom back and then look at the injectors.
But does that fault sound like failing injectors or loom? Under load it hesitates, but will rev to 4k, but no more. Red area starts at 4.5k. When at 4k, it's not missing at all-just won't go any higher.
Thank you for your thoughts.
I have an 03 plate Audi A3 1.9tdi (130). Owned from new and now has 180k miles. Booked in for a cam belt, new thermostat and to change gearbox oil.
Went to a well respected VAG specialist in the area.
Notice on the drive home, car is hesitating under full load. Fine on light throttle, no missing or anything.
Phoned them and took it back to check. They did and came back to say nothing they did (including jet washing the engine bay, despite me saying beforehand not to wash it). They think it's co-incidence and the sign of an injector that is starting to fail.
I told them I didn't accept that it was nothing to do with them, as it was running 100% fine (incl under full load, up to red line). Spoke to the manager and he had a look over it and went out on a drive.
He says they checked the plug where the wiring loom plugs in and it was bone dry, so it's not to do with the jet wash. Also he says it's not the timing, as it runs fine under light throttle. He says sometimes when they make a car run better, it brings hidden faults to light. Also that they have to re-set the ECU and maybe it had 'learned' to cope with minor faults in the past, so the re-set brought it to light.
He also said as part of his test, he disconnected the MAF sensor and apparently this didn't bring on the engine management warning light, so someone has obviously disconnected this in the past-by removing the clocks. Now I have had it since new and that's never happened, to my knowledge.
The upshot is that it's still nothing they've done. He thinks the wiring loom is going, so suggests replacing this. But as goodwill, only charge reduced labout while doing this. If the new loom is no better, they'll put the old loom back and then look at the injectors.
But does that fault sound like failing injectors or loom? Under load it hesitates, but will rev to 4k, but no more. Red area starts at 4.5k. When at 4k, it's not missing at all-just won't go any higher.
Thank you for your thoughts.
I think cambelt timing can be done wrong on the PD130 engines, looks like it can be a reason for power loss according to this: http://vwclub.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=94&t... . I'm no expert on these though.
Did the garage check for faults after you reported the problem, as it sounds like they are trying to say anything to avoid fixing what they did wrong, i.e. don't want to spend any more time on it unless you are paying. A 2003 PD might be compatible with any of the cheap OBD reader, might be worth using one of those to check for codes if they are compatible. All mass produced Diesels had to be compliant by 2004 with the cheap code readers.
If the ECU is power cutting, going into some sort of limp mode, which is sounds like it is, then a fault should be logged. On mine (A Rover Diesel), there is an ECU limit of 4000rpm imposed when the MAF sensor is unplugged, the lower rev limit on yours sounds like a similar strategy by the ECU when it is not happy with a reading it is seeing.
Did the garage check for faults after you reported the problem, as it sounds like they are trying to say anything to avoid fixing what they did wrong, i.e. don't want to spend any more time on it unless you are paying. A 2003 PD might be compatible with any of the cheap OBD reader, might be worth using one of those to check for codes if they are compatible. All mass produced Diesels had to be compliant by 2004 with the cheap code readers.
If the ECU is power cutting, going into some sort of limp mode, which is sounds like it is, then a fault should be logged. On mine (A Rover Diesel), there is an ECU limit of 4000rpm imposed when the MAF sensor is unplugged, the lower rev limit on yours sounds like a similar strategy by the ECU when it is not happy with a reading it is seeing.
Edited by Turkey on Wednesday 2nd July 19:28
Steve93 said:
I'm also going with this...Not even a difficult engine to do the belt on.
Also they wouldn't have reset the ECU just the service interval.
I changed the cam belt on a completely different car a few years ago, and failed to follow the tensioner setting instructions to the letter.Also they wouldn't have reset the ECU just the service interval.
The belt slipped a couple of teeth the first time I gave it any beans.
It ran beautifully at low revs, rattled like a tin full of nuts and bolts at higher revs.
Thanks guys-you just confirmed exactly what I thought. Initially I thought maybe the vacuum advance wasn't working (although I'm not 100% sure my car has one), so maybe all it was was a hose that had popped off/not been put back).
Now I'm even more annoyed. I accept mistakes happen and the extra hour of driving back and over an hour waiting while they looked at it again, wasn't the end of the world. What I am more annoyed about is that I asked them if it could be the timing and was told, by 4 of them, that this was not possible-so they wouldn't even check it. And *then*, for the manager to start making up b
ks about bringing hidden faults to light. I said to him exactly what a poster above said - how does replacing a cam belt or thermostat make it run better. It was running fine before. Yes, it took a while to get up to temperature before, but it still got there. He couldn't answer that and just started talking about the ECU.
And no, no fault codes were logged. It doesn't feel like it's cutting power, or going into limp mode, just hesitating a bit - not pulling through the rev range cleanly under load, although it does so fine on light throttle.
And what's really annoying is that this place isn't some little back street fly by night shop. It's very well known and even recommended on here as the place to take your VAG in the North West.
Well I didn't find the experience very Awesome at all and I'll be back on the phone tomorrow.
Now I'm even more annoyed. I accept mistakes happen and the extra hour of driving back and over an hour waiting while they looked at it again, wasn't the end of the world. What I am more annoyed about is that I asked them if it could be the timing and was told, by 4 of them, that this was not possible-so they wouldn't even check it. And *then*, for the manager to start making up b
ks about bringing hidden faults to light. I said to him exactly what a poster above said - how does replacing a cam belt or thermostat make it run better. It was running fine before. Yes, it took a while to get up to temperature before, but it still got there. He couldn't answer that and just started talking about the ECU. And no, no fault codes were logged. It doesn't feel like it's cutting power, or going into limp mode, just hesitating a bit - not pulling through the rev range cleanly under load, although it does so fine on light throttle.
And what's really annoying is that this place isn't some little back street fly by night shop. It's very well known and even recommended on here as the place to take your VAG in the North West.
Well I didn't find the experience very Awesome at all and I'll be back on the phone tomorrow.
Unfortunately 'well known' specialists arent always that good. I have a Golf V5, took it to a very well know VW independent for a service and general check over and tune up. They told me it had a bad oil leak but they couldnt find it as there was oil everywhere and it would be a lot of £££s to look into it.
Um no , thats coolant not oil , kind of obvious because, well its clearly coolant and also the coolant header is half empty. Now I did a bit of googling and found a common O ring fault in the coolant bridge behind the engine. A bit tricky to get at but not impossible. THe main reason I used a specialist was so that they would know about these kind of common faults. Took it to a much smaller also local VW specialist who agreed with me and fixed it for IIRC £50 including parts. And he's had it back fro every service and piece of work on the car since.
I found it very worrying that a well known specialist cant even tell the difference between oil and coolant. And it wasnt a case of 'chinese whispers' between the mechanic and the front desk, I spoke direct to the mechanic who worked on the car.
Um no , thats coolant not oil , kind of obvious because, well its clearly coolant and also the coolant header is half empty. Now I did a bit of googling and found a common O ring fault in the coolant bridge behind the engine. A bit tricky to get at but not impossible. THe main reason I used a specialist was so that they would know about these kind of common faults. Took it to a much smaller also local VW specialist who agreed with me and fixed it for IIRC £50 including parts. And he's had it back fro every service and piece of work on the car since.
I found it very worrying that a well known specialist cant even tell the difference between oil and coolant. And it wasnt a case of 'chinese whispers' between the mechanic and the front desk, I spoke direct to the mechanic who worked on the car.
Ok-an update.
Took my car back today and got it sorted. Spoke to the MD and explained what had happened, how the car felt etc. Very helpful and keen to get it sorted. Fully agreed the first thing to do was visually check the timing. Also agreed the suggestions by the staff last week as to co-incidental failings were unlikely.
A different mechanic took it for a drive 1st. Then he disconnected the MAF and said it seemed better, so they suggested changing this (at their cost) to see if it helped. It didn't so they opened it up and checked the timing and it was fine.
They had in in and out for over 2 hours and in the end found that they'd accidentally put the fuel lines back in the wrong order (1 from the tank and 1 return to the tank for un-used fuel). So it would run fine under light load, but not get enough under heavy load. Changed around and the mechanic took it for a drive and said it was like night and day and it now pulls like a train.
Profuse apologies from the MD, but I said I fully accept that mistakes happen and thanked him for taking a personal interest and getting it sorted. Also made a nice change for someone to try and analyse the symptoms logically.
So car's perfect and I'm very happy
Took my car back today and got it sorted. Spoke to the MD and explained what had happened, how the car felt etc. Very helpful and keen to get it sorted. Fully agreed the first thing to do was visually check the timing. Also agreed the suggestions by the staff last week as to co-incidental failings were unlikely.
A different mechanic took it for a drive 1st. Then he disconnected the MAF and said it seemed better, so they suggested changing this (at their cost) to see if it helped. It didn't so they opened it up and checked the timing and it was fine.
They had in in and out for over 2 hours and in the end found that they'd accidentally put the fuel lines back in the wrong order (1 from the tank and 1 return to the tank for un-used fuel). So it would run fine under light load, but not get enough under heavy load. Changed around and the mechanic took it for a drive and said it was like night and day and it now pulls like a train.
Profuse apologies from the MD, but I said I fully accept that mistakes happen and thanked him for taking a personal interest and getting it sorted. Also made a nice change for someone to try and analyse the symptoms logically.
So car's perfect and I'm very happy
kapiteinlangzaam said:
You've got the answer already, but just to re-iterate (as this is what I was going to type before I read the other answers).
99.9% the timing is out, as they have done a bodge job of changing the belt.
Absolute school boy error type stuff.
Hope you're not a betting man 99.9% the timing is out, as they have done a bodge job of changing the belt.
Absolute school boy error type stuff.
The scary thing is that if you'd accepted the (let's face it, talking out of his @rse) manager's lies you'd be driving round with a car that had fuel pipes on the wrong way...
I don't agree with the compensayshun brigade but I think the manager should at least get a bking for spouting that crap when there was obviously a problem.
I don't agree with the compensayshun brigade but I think the manager should at least get a b
king for spouting that crap when there was obviously a problem.Was there a little "hint" as to who the specialist was in one of your posts?
If so I've dealt with them before, though only ever for parts purchases. On the occasion that there was an issue at their end they bent over backwards to resolve it, good to see they're still going out of their way to keep customers happy with post-sale support.
If so I've dealt with them before, though only ever for parts purchases. On the occasion that there was an issue at their end they bent over backwards to resolve it, good to see they're still going out of their way to keep customers happy with post-sale support.
kapiteinlangzaam said:
rhinochopig said:
kapiteinlangzaam said:
You've got the answer already, but just to re-iterate (as this is what I was going to type before I read the other answers).
99.9% the timing is out, as they have done a bodge job of changing the belt.
Absolute school boy error type stuff.
Hope you're not a betting man 99.9% the timing is out, as they have done a bodge job of changing the belt.
Absolute school boy error type stuff.
Putting the fuel lines on the wrong way around sounds like a school boy error though.
My suggestion was based purely on two experiences from other owners forums (one Volvo and one Alfa), both times where the timing wasnt correctly set after a belt change!
You made it sound like you were a mechanic who's seen and fixed this 100 times before.
If you're just repeating forum hearsay, SAY that. It makes the b
ksy guessing very hard to distinguish from people offering genuine knowledge.ManOpener said:
Was there a little "hint" as to who the specialist was in one of your posts?
If so I've dealt with them before, though only ever for parts purchases. On the occasion that there was an issue at their end they bent over backwards to resolve it, good to see they're still going out of their way to keep customers happy with post-sale support.
That's awesome If so I've dealt with them before, though only ever for parts purchases. On the occasion that there was an issue at their end they bent over backwards to resolve it, good to see they're still going out of their way to keep customers happy with post-sale support.
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