Getting a refund for (sort of) false air-con regassing.
Discussion
Evening All,
I had my wifes Qashqai air-con regassed for £50 at a well known establishment that can fit things awfully kwik, I explained at the time that the car is under warranty, and as such if there is a leak I'd rather they not gas the system up as the warranty company will cover the cost of repair.
I pick it up an hour later, and it's almost ice cold, I'm told there were no issues with it and it just needed the gas. I paid with my mastercard and left.
about 4 days later the air-con is warm again, no hint of cold at all. After some weeks of pissing around trying to get them to look at the problem under their 12 month work guarantee, it took about 4 weeks that we finally established a time for their master technician to look at it, and he confirmed that there is a hole in the condensor. I asked why the gassed the system up if there was a leak, and was told that with some holes the vacuum used to check for leaks would close them up as if they weren't there.
They are implying that I'm on my own, and just have to pay for the repair, which seems like a good old bit of bulls
t considering their 12 month guarantee, so my questions to you are:
1) Has anyone got any experience with AC, and could explain the process of an condensor having a hole in it that could be closed upon a vacuum being introduced?
2) in the event that the garage still refuse to refund me, is this the sort of thing I can get my credit card company to refund me on? I've never used a credit card guarantee so I'm not really sure how they work. Tesco Mastercard if that makes any difference.
I had my wifes Qashqai air-con regassed for £50 at a well known establishment that can fit things awfully kwik, I explained at the time that the car is under warranty, and as such if there is a leak I'd rather they not gas the system up as the warranty company will cover the cost of repair.
I pick it up an hour later, and it's almost ice cold, I'm told there were no issues with it and it just needed the gas. I paid with my mastercard and left.
about 4 days later the air-con is warm again, no hint of cold at all. After some weeks of pissing around trying to get them to look at the problem under their 12 month work guarantee, it took about 4 weeks that we finally established a time for their master technician to look at it, and he confirmed that there is a hole in the condensor. I asked why the gassed the system up if there was a leak, and was told that with some holes the vacuum used to check for leaks would close them up as if they weren't there.
They are implying that I'm on my own, and just have to pay for the repair, which seems like a good old bit of bulls
t considering their 12 month guarantee, so my questions to you are:1) Has anyone got any experience with AC, and could explain the process of an condensor having a hole in it that could be closed upon a vacuum being introduced?
2) in the event that the garage still refuse to refund me, is this the sort of thing I can get my credit card company to refund me on? I've never used a credit card guarantee so I'm not really sure how they work. Tesco Mastercard if that makes any difference.
The system should (this was a few years ago, I doubt it's changed) be tested for leakage by removing what's left of the old 'gas' under vacuum then pressurising to standard pressure with Nitrogen (which is inert 
) with a flourescent dye and some lubricant added; UV light is then used to find where the fluorescent dye is leaking from the system without any 'gas' leaking out with the attendant risk of environmental damage from said 'gas' leakage...
Your garage have got this illegally wrong
. You might like to point this out to them 
- but check that what I've said about checking for leaks using Nitrogen & fluorescent dye still stands before advising them ...
) with a flourescent dye and some lubricant added; UV light is then used to find where the fluorescent dye is leaking from the system without any 'gas' leaking out with the attendant risk of environmental damage from said 'gas' leakage...Your garage have got this illegally wrong
. You might like to point this out to them - but check that what I've said about checking for leaks using Nitrogen & fluorescent dye still stands before advising them ...AlmostUseful said:
Evening All,
I had my wifes Qashqai air-con regassed for £50 at a well known establishment that can fit things awfully kwik, I explained at the time that the car is under warranty, and as such if there is a leak I'd rather they not gas the system up as the warranty company will cover the cost of repair.
I pick it up an hour later, and it's almost ice cold, I'm told there were no issues with it and it just needed the gas. I paid with my mastercard and left.
about 4 days later the air-con is warm again, no hint of cold at all. After some weeks of pissing around trying to get them to look at the problem under their 12 month work guarantee, it took about 4 weeks that we finally established a time for their master technician to look at it, and he confirmed that there is a hole in the condensor. I asked why the gassed the system up if there was a leak, and was told that with some holes the vacuum used to check for leaks would close them up as if they weren't there.
They are implying that I'm on my own, and just have to pay for the repair, which seems like a good old bit of bullst considering their 12 month guarantee, so my questions to you are:
1) Has anyone got any experience with AC, and could explain the process of an condensor having a hole in it that could be closed upon a vacuum being introduced?
2) in the event that the garage still refuse to refund me, is this the sort of thing I can get my credit card company to refund me on? I've never used a credit card guarantee so I'm not really sure how they work. Tesco Mastercard if that makes any difference.
Raise a formal written complaint with the garage. Minimum chargeback amount under CC legislation is £100. However if at the same time you tell your CC company again in writing of the complaints using their complaints procedure you may find they chargeback anyway. They may not. If you keep complaining the CC card may refund. They do not rush to do this hence the repeated complaints may assist them. It may not. The garage will probably deny all liability therefore in the event the CC co do not refund then you are up the creek. Good luck.I had my wifes Qashqai air-con regassed for £50 at a well known establishment that can fit things awfully kwik, I explained at the time that the car is under warranty, and as such if there is a leak I'd rather they not gas the system up as the warranty company will cover the cost of repair.
I pick it up an hour later, and it's almost ice cold, I'm told there were no issues with it and it just needed the gas. I paid with my mastercard and left.
about 4 days later the air-con is warm again, no hint of cold at all. After some weeks of pissing around trying to get them to look at the problem under their 12 month work guarantee, it took about 4 weeks that we finally established a time for their master technician to look at it, and he confirmed that there is a hole in the condensor. I asked why the gassed the system up if there was a leak, and was told that with some holes the vacuum used to check for leaks would close them up as if they weren't there.
They are implying that I'm on my own, and just have to pay for the repair, which seems like a good old bit of bulls
t considering their 12 month guarantee, so my questions to you are:1) Has anyone got any experience with AC, and could explain the process of an condensor having a hole in it that could be closed upon a vacuum being introduced?
2) in the event that the garage still refuse to refund me, is this the sort of thing I can get my credit card company to refund me on? I've never used a credit card guarantee so I'm not really sure how they work. Tesco Mastercard if that makes any difference.
If your aircon needs regassing there is almost certainly a leak of some kind, whether it takes an hour to lose pressure or a year is a different question though and there aren't any cheaper ways of finding out than just regassing it.
I haven't seen the systems filled with nitrogen + UV dye but that would make sense although I can't see it costing much less than £50 to do and if it doesn't show a leak you'd then have to pay again to have that taken out and fresh refrigerant put back in; if it did show a leak you'd still need to pay for the test. Most a/c guys would put normal refrigerant in with the UV dye so it will show up a definite leak if there is one or get it working again if there isn't.
I understand that some of the latest cars have a much more expensive refrigerant so maybe the nitrogen option will make more sense on those for testing before refilling properly.
Regarding the garage you used, they may sometimes get a slagging on here but they do have a very Kwik customer services department that tends to side with the customer so I'd suggest that the branch manager will probably just refund you if you request it and if not you shouldn't have to shout too loudly to get your money back.
I haven't seen the systems filled with nitrogen + UV dye but that would make sense although I can't see it costing much less than £50 to do and if it doesn't show a leak you'd then have to pay again to have that taken out and fresh refrigerant put back in; if it did show a leak you'd still need to pay for the test. Most a/c guys would put normal refrigerant in with the UV dye so it will show up a definite leak if there is one or get it working again if there isn't.
I understand that some of the latest cars have a much more expensive refrigerant so maybe the nitrogen option will make more sense on those for testing before refilling properly.
Regarding the garage you used, they may sometimes get a slagging on here but they do have a very Kwik customer services department that tends to side with the customer so I'd suggest that the branch manager will probably just refund you if you request it and if not you shouldn't have to shout too loudly to get your money back.
Steve H said:
If your aircon needs regassing there is almost certainly a leak of some kind, whether it takes an hour to lose pressure or a year is a different question though and there aren't any cheaper ways of finding out than just regassing it.
I haven't seen the systems filled with nitrogen + UV dye but that would make sense although I can't see it costing much less than £50 to do and if it doesn't show a leak you'd then have to pay again to have that taken out and fresh refrigerant put back in; if it did show a leak you'd still need to pay for the test. Most a/c guys would put normal refrigerant in with the UV dye so it will show up a definite leak if there is one or get it working again if there isn't.
I understand that some of the latest cars have a much more expensive refrigerant so maybe the nitrogen option will make more sense on those for testing before refilling properly.
Regarding the garage you used, they may sometimes get a slagging on here but they do have a very Kwik customer services department that tends to side with the customer so I'd suggest that the branch manager will probably just refund you if you request it and if not you shouldn't have to shout too loudly to get your money back.
Got to be worth a try. I think you have grounds for complaint. Up to the OP. I haven't seen the systems filled with nitrogen + UV dye but that would make sense although I can't see it costing much less than £50 to do and if it doesn't show a leak you'd then have to pay again to have that taken out and fresh refrigerant put back in; if it did show a leak you'd still need to pay for the test. Most a/c guys would put normal refrigerant in with the UV dye so it will show up a definite leak if there is one or get it working again if there isn't.
I understand that some of the latest cars have a much more expensive refrigerant so maybe the nitrogen option will make more sense on those for testing before refilling properly.
Regarding the garage you used, they may sometimes get a slagging on here but they do have a very Kwik customer services department that tends to side with the customer so I'd suggest that the branch manager will probably just refund you if you request it and if not you shouldn't have to shout too loudly to get your money back.
First thing first refrigerant is not to be used for checking for leaks. Second vacuuming the system is not a suitable means of checking for a leak, it is not the purpose of the vacuum part of the process. If less then half the required gas is recovered from the system the system must be checked for a leak with nitrogen pressurised to approximate 8-10 bar. Ideally the system is left for about half an hour to see if the nitrogen has less pressure. If it has the a visual check over the system with a UV lamp for evidence of dye and a leak detecting spray can be used to check for leaks. Putting UV dye in with the nitrogen is a waist of time as this will not be circulated by the compressor as the system is not run with nitrogen.
It is a legal requirement to check for leaks before filling the system with r134a. A nitrogen leak test will normally cost between £25-30 ish including VAT.
Hope this helps.
It is a legal requirement to check for leaks before filling the system with r134a. A nitrogen leak test will normally cost between £25-30 ish including VAT.
Hope this helps.
Cyberprog said:
I think most places check by doing a vacuum test. I had a Kwik-Fit re-gas and they didn't spot a leak, but a day later and it was back to being warm again and a subsequent nitrogen test showed there was a leak.
Mine lasted about 2 weeks before wiping the smug grin off my face. Decided it would be easier to buy a car where the air con already worked (after sifting through the usual "yeah it's got air con mate, just needs a regas" advertsLast time I had mine re-gassed it was a mobile guy. Vacuum first of all then he filled with nitrogen and used his gas sniffer to check for leaks. Only then did he fill with refrigerant. Holding a vacuum is one sign that there are no leaks but the nitrogen test should be done as well according to my guy.
Steve H said:
If your aircon needs regassing there is almost certainly a leak of some kind, whether it takes an hour to lose pressure or a year is a different question though and there aren't any cheaper ways of finding out than just regassing it.
But it's illegal to regas a system you suspect of having a leak, nitrogen should always be used first. However this very rarely happens and I doubt Kwik Fit have even got the nitrogen gear.
In fairness to them they did my bora about 5 years ago so I don't want to paint them as generally bad, just turns out they seem a bit sneaky this time!
Will respond to you all later, thanks for your help. Just not a fan if multi quotes on my phone as it rarely actually posts the bloody message! Will wait 'til I'm on a PC.
Will respond to you all later, thanks for your help. Just not a fan if multi quotes on my phone as it rarely actually posts the bloody message! Will wait 'til I'm on a PC.
Just so there is no confusion in to what I have said may be hearsay or not I am qualified to repair air con and not just the basic F gas training.
Vacuuming the system is not acceptable to test for leaks. It is not the purpose of the vacuum process. Pulling a vacuum can pull seals and damage back in to seal the hole up. Pressure testing is what is required. At the very best you are only going to get close to one bar with a vac. As I have said further up pressure testing is done at 8bar plus.
It does wind me up that the likes of some of these operators mentioning no names do a cut price job but also give a cut price service. Then the uninitiated think that a proper job seems expensive. We charge £59.99 including VAT for a full regas service if the system is able to be gassed. If we get as far as a nitrogen test and the system is found to be leaking we trace the leak estimate the repair work and stop there and charge the customer £25.00 including VAT to carry out the leak test. When doing the full regas we add UV dye so that any future investigation work is made easier.
My advise would be to find someone local that specialises in this work or comes recommended as cheapest isn't always best value for money.
Vacuuming the system is not acceptable to test for leaks. It is not the purpose of the vacuum process. Pulling a vacuum can pull seals and damage back in to seal the hole up. Pressure testing is what is required. At the very best you are only going to get close to one bar with a vac. As I have said further up pressure testing is done at 8bar plus.
It does wind me up that the likes of some of these operators mentioning no names do a cut price job but also give a cut price service. Then the uninitiated think that a proper job seems expensive. We charge £59.99 including VAT for a full regas service if the system is able to be gassed. If we get as far as a nitrogen test and the system is found to be leaking we trace the leak estimate the repair work and stop there and charge the customer £25.00 including VAT to carry out the leak test. When doing the full regas we add UV dye so that any future investigation work is made easier.
My advise would be to find someone local that specialises in this work or comes recommended as cheapest isn't always best value for money.
^i like people like you ^
Thanks, very useful indeed. They weren't the cheapest incidentally, and I only used them because they did the bora ok back in the day.
I'd normally use a specialist for most things, but they're local, it was convenient, and it was for my wife's car so I'm a little more blasé... Shh, don't tell her!!
Cheers though. You've been very helpful.
Thanks, very useful indeed. They weren't the cheapest incidentally, and I only used them because they did the bora ok back in the day.
I'd normally use a specialist for most things, but they're local, it was convenient, and it was for my wife's car so I'm a little more blasé... Shh, don't tell her!!
Cheers though. You've been very helpful.
The "automatic" machines like the one I have do a 3 minute pressure check, and if the pressure drops low enough the machine will give a warning beep to alert the operator....what can happen is with a minute leak the pressure will drop very slowly but not enough to make the machine beep, so a badly trained operator will just let the machine move on and put gas into your leaking system which will leak out slowly.
POORCARDEALER said:
The "automatic" machines like the one I have do a 3 minute pressure check, and if the pressure drops low enough the machine will give a warning beep to alert the operator....what can happen is with a minute leak the pressure will drop very slowly but not enough to make the machine beep, so a badly trained operator will just let the machine move on and put gas into your leaking system which will leak out slowly.
Are you sure it does a pressure check, and not a three minute "vacuum hold?" They are two very different things....Cerbieherts said:
POORCARDEALER said:
The "automatic" machines like the one I have do a 3 minute pressure check, and if the pressure drops low enough the machine will give a warning beep to alert the operator....what can happen is with a minute leak the pressure will drop very slowly but not enough to make the machine beep, so a badly trained operator will just let the machine move on and put gas into your leaking system which will leak out slowly.
Are you sure it does a pressure check, and not a three minute "vacuum hold?" They are two very different things....AlmostUseful said:
^i like people like you ^
Thanks, very useful indeed. They weren't the cheapest incidentally, and I only used them because they did the bora ok back in the day.
I'd normally use a specialist for most things, but they're local, it was convenient, and it was for my wife's car so I'm a little more blasé... Shh, don't tell her!!
Cheers though. You've been very helpful.
Sorry if it looked like I came over all high and mighty but I get it all the time in the workshop that fast fit chain X and car parts store Y will do it cheaper than we do and customers just walk sometimes. The leak test with nitrogen will be a minimums of 30 mins with us unless a leak is aparent before hand. I worn customers to leave their car for two hours for a regas service just in case we need to do an extended leak test. Thanks, very useful indeed. They weren't the cheapest incidentally, and I only used them because they did the bora ok back in the day.
I'd normally use a specialist for most things, but they're local, it was convenient, and it was for my wife's car so I'm a little more blasé... Shh, don't tell her!!
Cheers though. You've been very helpful.
Still we still seem to do a few
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