Do laser/camera vans have to warn you?
Discussion
Hi all,
Went past a camera/laser trap van yesterday unfortunately doing about 40 in a 30 zone. The van was parked on my side of the road facing towards the traffic flow so the detector or camera will have been pointing at my rear no.plate as I went past. So 2 questions. 1). Do these vans have to have signs out warning that there are speed cameras operating - coz there weren't any! and 2). going in the direction I was, am I gonna get caught?!
Thanks
Went past a camera/laser trap van yesterday unfortunately doing about 40 in a 30 zone. The van was parked on my side of the road facing towards the traffic flow so the detector or camera will have been pointing at my rear no.plate as I went past. So 2 questions. 1). Do these vans have to have signs out warning that there are speed cameras operating - coz there weren't any! and 2). going in the direction I was, am I gonna get caught?!
Thanks
Hmmm. Thats what I thought, its just that all the other similar type vans had the small black and white signs out warning of the van and there were none in this case...I even went back to check! To be honest, there's not a lot I can argue about. I was breaking the speed limit. But my job requires I keep a clean license so could have serious knock-on effect - not sure yet how much impact 3 points would have...
Well following from my original posting, it seems the answer is no as I have received the dreaded letter now! Bugger! 
Clocked doing 36 in a 30. Is this worth pursuing or best to just take it on the chin and accept the 3 points and £60 fine?
>> Edited by funkyelise on Monday 20th December 12:33
Clocked doing 36 in a 30. Is this worth pursuing or best to just take it on the chin and accept the 3 points and £60 fine? >> Edited by funkyelise on Monday 20th December 12:33
you'll not get id dropped, just caused then as much bother as you can
Always write, don't phone them. Send everything recorded delivery.
Say you want to see the photos, quote the ACPO guidelines at them.
You'll still have to pay, but you can certainly give them more than 60 quids worth of grief.
Was the NIP sent 1st class or registered post by the way. Means nothing if it wasn't.
Always write, don't phone them. Send everything recorded delivery.
Say you want to see the photos, quote the ACPO guidelines at them.
You'll still have to pay, but you can certainly give them more than 60 quids worth of grief.
Was the NIP sent 1st class or registered post by the way. Means nothing if it wasn't.
funkyelise said:
Well following from my original posting, it seems the answer is no as I have received the dreaded letter now! Bugger!
maybe see if they offer a speeding "course" in lieu of points as it is marginal. Without meaning to sound harsh, "why were you speeding if your job depends on a clean licence"?
bryan35 - it was sent 1st class but within the 14 day period. How does this matter? I hadn't heard of the postage method affecting things but could be v.useful to know!...
mcflurry - point taken...well 3 actually!...just a basic lack of concentration had allowed my speed to creep up. Wasn't feeling great and just didn't react quick enough.
To be honest, the expression 'its a fair cop guv' applies and a lesson learnt!
mcflurry - point taken...well 3 actually!...just a basic lack of concentration had allowed my speed to creep up. Wasn't feeling great and just didn't react quick enough.
To be honest, the expression 'its a fair cop guv' applies and a lesson learnt!
funkyelise said:
To be honest, the expression 'its a fair cop guv' applies and a lesson learnt!
I applaud your thoughts and integrity...
It's never easy to accept when one is wrong..(I know, as I'm wrong frequently..
) and the possiblity of notifying your insurance firm for the next 3 years of your penalty points is also disheartening.... Seasons Greetings anyway....don't dwell on it too much...
If you look on the 'Pepipoo' speed camera site you will see the way to reply to the NIP to avoiod any further proceedings.
Basically, you don't fill in the NIP, you send it back with a letter which provides the information required under S172 of the RTA, but you add a paragraph pointing out that as you have not been cautioned under the requirements of PACE 1984, then the information is not to be used as evidence in court. This you send to the office of the Chief Constable by recorded delivery.
Apparently this works.
The other tack is to require details of the camera operator. If he/she was a civilian then you have a defence that the law requires speed cameras only to be used to confirm the opinion of a POLICE OFFICER that a vehicle was speeding. A civvie just ain't a police officer. You demand all the information including the photos and the name and rank of the camera operator on the basis that you will be pleading not guilty. With a not guilty plea the CPS are required to furnish all the information relating to the prosecution. There's lots about all this on Pepipoo.
If you are happy to pay and get the points, then OK, but if not you should fight it and it will probably go away. It's down to whether you feel strongly enough about being required to incriminate yourself and whether you have the balls to go against the cash-collection system.
The choice is yours.
Basically, you don't fill in the NIP, you send it back with a letter which provides the information required under S172 of the RTA, but you add a paragraph pointing out that as you have not been cautioned under the requirements of PACE 1984, then the information is not to be used as evidence in court. This you send to the office of the Chief Constable by recorded delivery.
Apparently this works.
The other tack is to require details of the camera operator. If he/she was a civilian then you have a defence that the law requires speed cameras only to be used to confirm the opinion of a POLICE OFFICER that a vehicle was speeding. A civvie just ain't a police officer. You demand all the information including the photos and the name and rank of the camera operator on the basis that you will be pleading not guilty. With a not guilty plea the CPS are required to furnish all the information relating to the prosecution. There's lots about all this on Pepipoo.
If you are happy to pay and get the points, then OK, but if not you should fight it and it will probably go away. It's down to whether you feel strongly enough about being required to incriminate yourself and whether you have the balls to go against the cash-collection system.
The choice is yours.
I wouldn't worry too much about your insurance with 3 points. My broker's exact words at renewal were, "don't worry about it, the whole country has 3 points so we don't penalise you".
They routinely ignore 6 SP type points, or 3 PC or TS marks. They won't insure at all for DD, DS or IN endorsements though.
They routinely ignore 6 SP type points, or 3 PC or TS marks. They won't insure at all for DD, DS or IN endorsements though.
cooperman said:
The other tack is to require details of the camera operator. If he/she was a civilian then you have a defence that the law requires speed cameras only to be used to confirm the opinion of a POLICE OFFICER that a vehicle was speeding. A civvie just ain't a police officer. You demand all the information including the photos and the name and rank of the camera operator on the basis that you will be pleading not guilty. With a not guilty plea the CPS are required to furnish all the information relating to the prosecution.
I'm a bit concerned that people may be getting swrong information about civilian as opposed to Police camera operators.
Basically, the law is covered in s89 RTRA 1989, and there is no actual reference to a constable, it just has to be someone approved by the Chief Officer of Police.
This is from memory, and I'd be quite happy to be proved wrong on this one - I know there were possibly a couple of cases earlier this yera (at Neath COurt, I think), where the job was thrown out. Unfortunately, I don't have the full details, so am unsure what the actual reason for discontinuance was.
I would just advise caution if the civilian/Police operator angle was the only thing you were banking on to get off a speeding ticket.
As I said, happy to be proved wrong on this.
mcflurry said:
I wouldn't worry too much about your insurance with 3 points. My broker's exact words at renewal were, "don't worry about it, the whole country has 3 points so we don't penalise you".
They routinely ignore 6 SP type points...
That's good news and sounds as if at least some insurers know already that points don't equal bad risk and are not using them as an excuse to raise premiums.
They have their own ways of assessing risk and clearly already use data (which has been published) which indicates that it's mainly the accident-free drivers who are getting the points.
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