Why can't we build a decent road surface ?
Discussion
Here I am for a mini rant...
Having just returned from a weeks driving in France, where the roads are totally smooth I was thinking about why our road surfaces are so poor. I drove up the M20 almost getting thrown off the road once or twice due to lumps and bumps.
Onto the newly surfaced M25...again an awful surface admittedly I was pretty firmly sprung car, but the surface is terrible. Finally off at Juction 28..through Brentwood which is in the process of being resurfaced. Tons of loose chippings everywhere, surface not level with drain covers and even the new surface isn't flat... How is this possible ? Surely when laying a road with a huge roller it must be flat ?
So, why is it ? No money ? Cheap Tarmac ? Shoddy Workmen ? How can the French do it and We can't ? Answers on a postcard...
Having just returned from a weeks driving in France, where the roads are totally smooth I was thinking about why our road surfaces are so poor. I drove up the M20 almost getting thrown off the road once or twice due to lumps and bumps.
Onto the newly surfaced M25...again an awful surface admittedly I was pretty firmly sprung car, but the surface is terrible. Finally off at Juction 28..through Brentwood which is in the process of being resurfaced. Tons of loose chippings everywhere, surface not level with drain covers and even the new surface isn't flat... How is this possible ? Surely when laying a road with a huge roller it must be flat ?
So, why is it ? No money ? Cheap Tarmac ? Shoddy Workmen ? How can the French do it and We can't ? Answers on a postcard...
Edited by Jmracing66 on Tuesday 8th July 17:32
France has its fair share of bad (in some cases terrible) roads. Their trunk routes tend to be pretty good; I don't actually know how their funding model works but it may be that they're good because you have to pay directly to use them.
In terms of how long roads last, there's a number of factors - the amount of rain an area gets; the type of soil and/or rock the road is built on; the number of freeze/thaw cycles the ground goes through per year; the quality of the drainage; the depth and quality of the ground-works; the quality and depth of the actual tarmac surface;... the UK certainly doesn't have the best quality roads in the world, but they're a very, very long way from the worst.
Out of interest, would you consider it a worthwhile trade off if the M25 had a good surface but you had to pay £10 a time to use it?
In terms of how long roads last, there's a number of factors - the amount of rain an area gets; the type of soil and/or rock the road is built on; the number of freeze/thaw cycles the ground goes through per year; the quality of the drainage; the depth and quality of the ground-works; the quality and depth of the actual tarmac surface;... the UK certainly doesn't have the best quality roads in the world, but they're a very, very long way from the worst.
Out of interest, would you consider it a worthwhile trade off if the M25 had a good surface but you had to pay £10 a time to use it?
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 8th July 17:27
Jmracing66 said:
So, why is it ? No money ? Cheap Tarmac ? Shoddy Workmen ?
Because very very few complain, and not loudly enough.Ask yourself this - if PH's organised an e=petition complaining about roads, would we get a 100k signatures - PH membership is far higher and all keen on cars.
Jmracing66 said:
Fittster said:
Would you pay a toll to use the M20?
I pay over £1000 a year in road tax ? Doesn't that count ?I understand a road surface doesn't last that long etc, but even our new ones are awful !
Do you like the surface of the M6 toll?
The UK spends over half a billion quid a year on road maintenance.
It's been estimated that to get them all up to standard within a year or two would cost about £10bn.
Should the extra money come from cutting other services or increasing tax? Remember the Gov't are already spending about £100bn more than they receive every year, and £40bn on interest payments on debt. Oh, and £10bn is about twice the total Police budget or half primary healthcare.
It's been estimated that to get them all up to standard within a year or two would cost about £10bn.
Should the extra money come from cutting other services or increasing tax? Remember the Gov't are already spending about £100bn more than they receive every year, and £40bn on interest payments on debt. Oh, and £10bn is about twice the total Police budget or half primary healthcare.
Dr Jekyll said:
UK roads do seem to have deteriorated noticeably in the last 25 years or so. I remember in the 70s magazines would always attribute the soft ride of French cars to appalling French roads, now roads elsewhere in western Europe all seem to be better.
In my experience French roads are still worse than British ones once you stray off the Autoroutes. Our road network is just crap.
Went to the south of France last year and their roads are a joy to use. Granted the toll roads are in great condition and not full of roadworks either but that said driving to Monaco but going over the hills using the scenic route (oh what roads!) the surfaces were near perfect meaning you had every confidence zooming into corners that you weren't having to dodge potholes or iffy road edges.
The UK needs to sort itself out!
Went to the south of France last year and their roads are a joy to use. Granted the toll roads are in great condition and not full of roadworks either but that said driving to Monaco but going over the hills using the scenic route (oh what roads!) the surfaces were near perfect meaning you had every confidence zooming into corners that you weren't having to dodge potholes or iffy road edges.
The UK needs to sort itself out!
A second hand story, but it's all about what people are willing to pay... Back in 1975/76 when the M69 was being built my Dad was an engineer on half of it and planned bridges. The other half went to another contractor meaning you have about 8 miles from 1 contractor and 8 miles from the other. The 8 miles that my Dad's company built was more expensive by a large factor.
About 20 years later when in the car with my Dad, I commented that there were always re-surfacing works on this part of the M69..... not surprisingly the cheaper half. They started 3 years after it was built and have continued ever since. The re-surfacing started on the half my Dad's firm built about 25 years after it was built......
So it's about cost cutting, quality of specification and looking at the long term total cost of ownership.....
An aside from that, some of the chaps working on the motorway used to live in caravans in one of the farmers fields. One weekend, they stayed around and helped the farmer fill in a big hole and worked really hard.
The farmer gave them a pig each (slaughtered, not live) One of the chaps told his wife who said she needed a new freezer. That freezer also needed a new extension on the house to fit it in.... hence Charlie's weekend of hard graft cost him more than he bargained for..
About 20 years later when in the car with my Dad, I commented that there were always re-surfacing works on this part of the M69..... not surprisingly the cheaper half. They started 3 years after it was built and have continued ever since. The re-surfacing started on the half my Dad's firm built about 25 years after it was built......
So it's about cost cutting, quality of specification and looking at the long term total cost of ownership.....
An aside from that, some of the chaps working on the motorway used to live in caravans in one of the farmers fields. One weekend, they stayed around and helped the farmer fill in a big hole and worked really hard.
The farmer gave them a pig each (slaughtered, not live) One of the chaps told his wife who said she needed a new freezer. That freezer also needed a new extension on the house to fit it in.... hence Charlie's weekend of hard graft cost him more than he bargained for..
kambites said:
France has its fair share of bad (in some cases terrible) roads. Their trunk routes tend to be pretty good; I don't actually know how their funding model works but it may be that they're good because you have to pay directly to use them.
In terms of how long roads last, there's a number of factors - the amount of rain an area gets; the type of soil and/or rock the road is built on; the number of freeze/thaw cycles the ground goes through per year; the quality of the drainage; the depth and quality of the ground-works; the quality and depth of the actual tarmac surface;... the UK certainly doesn't have the best quality roads in the world, but they're a very, very long way from the worst.
Out of interest, would you consider it a worthwhile trade off if the M25 had a good surface but you had to pay £10 a time to use it?
French roads in the 50`s were dire, not sure how much of that was down to the damage done during WW2In terms of how long roads last, there's a number of factors - the amount of rain an area gets; the type of soil and/or rock the road is built on; the number of freeze/thaw cycles the ground goes through per year; the quality of the drainage; the depth and quality of the ground-works; the quality and depth of the actual tarmac surface;... the UK certainly doesn't have the best quality roads in the world, but they're a very, very long way from the worst.
Out of interest, would you consider it a worthwhile trade off if the M25 had a good surface but you had to pay £10 a time to use it?
Edited by kambites on Tuesday 8th July 17:27
but they were in places truly 4th world, let alone 3rd world. But the at the commencement of the Common Market, France used funds being paid into Common market coffers, to carry out a massive repair and upgrade program, across the whole country (how else do you think a country that size with far fewer inhabitants could afford to do this?).
Germany at the time was receiving US rebuilding aid, and was still very much on a guilt trip following WW2 so did not feel it could object to France`s use of the cash for their roads, or start throwing its weight around in the fledgling structure that was the (then) common market.
Perhaps as the 2nd largest net contributor into the coffers of what is now the EU. the UK should perhaps say , sorry! EU but we will not be paying this years EU subs, because we need these funds to upgrade and repair `our' roads.
errrm a bit like you did?
But when we have our own politicians claiming that they are spending lots of extra cash on our roads
(£325 million) when the motoring of all types pays billions and billions every year into the exchequer what chance have we got? A classic case of the government starving to death the goose that has been laying it its golden eggs every single year.
The really nice roads that most Brits use when they come over to France are the privately owned and run autoroutes, which generate their own money via the tolls to pay for maintainence.
The trunk roads that are publicly owned are less pristine than the autoroutes, but do, in my experience get better maintained than the majority of UK roads. However this comes at a price, namely that you get taxed to buggery in France one way or another, to a level that would make the average Pistonheader break out in a sweat....
The trunk roads that are publicly owned are less pristine than the autoroutes, but do, in my experience get better maintained than the majority of UK roads. However this comes at a price, namely that you get taxed to buggery in France one way or another, to a level that would make the average Pistonheader break out in a sweat....
Craigyp79 said:
The really nice roads that most Brits use when they come over to France are the privately owned and run autoroutes, which generate their own money via the tolls to pay for maintainence.
The trunk roads that are publicly owned are less pristine than the autoroutes, but do, in my experience get better maintained than the majority of UK roads. However this comes at a price, namely that you get taxed to buggery in France one way or another, to a level that would make the average Pistonheader break out in a sweat....
They do at least apply their equivalent of the VED on the fuel (and it is STILL is only around the same price as here!) but most of the small roads are in generally good condition, not least because of the population to area ratio in France, compared to the UK.The trunk roads that are publicly owned are less pristine than the autoroutes, but do, in my experience get better maintained than the majority of UK roads. However this comes at a price, namely that you get taxed to buggery in France one way or another, to a level that would make the average Pistonheader break out in a sweat....
Pan Pan said:
Perhaps as the 2nd largest net contributor into the coffers of what is now the EU. the UK should perhaps say , sorry!
If you try that, you're likely to fall at the first hurdle - what with us not being anywhere close to the 2nd largest contributor...By € per capita, we're seventh (and pay about 30% of the highest)
By %GDP, we're seventh (and pay about 45% of the highest) - and that's probably the most relevant measure.
By total € contribution, we're fourth (and pay about 45% of the highest)
(And that's out of eleven net contributors, btw)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_Europea...
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