Best (and worst) hot hatch ever? Please read the criteria!
Discussion
Sorry, I know this topic has been flogged to death but I saw this video clip on the Clio Cup vs Audi R8 thread yesterday and it kind of made me re-evaluate my criteria for what makes a great hot hatch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTTI-aMKn60
So, going by these criteria, which is the best (and worst) hot hatch:
1) Light (as close to a tonne as possible or lighter for good PWR and can be tracked as standard without cooking the tyres and brakes);
2) Small footprint to aid brisk progress on B-roads;
3) Fast enough to keep more expensive/exotic machinery honest on a twisty road;
4)Have a nod to practicality i.e. 4/5 seats and a boot i.e. not a stripped-out 2-seater special;
5) Affordable (hot hatches are supposed to be the working-class performance car, so cost less than 20,000 pounds in today's money);
6) Most importantly, fun and have fantastic handling.
Talking from personal experience (having owned one), this is my benchmark and probably my favourite in 1.9 flavour.
An oversized engine, in a very compact, light car with the minimum of mod cons. Personally, I like that it is NA for instant throttle response and that you have to work it to get the best from it. Still looks the part too!
Of its contemporaries, the mk1/2 Golf GTi ran it really close but was slower/heavier and a bit more practical and refined, which made it less fun but probably nicer to live with day-to-day IMHO.
However, I openly accept that they are hopelessly outgunned by modern standards and even a fastish 10 year old car (Impreza WRX perhaps) would leave one for dead.
Although I tried one when they were new with a view to purchase and didn't really "gel" with it, I have to concede that Harry is probably right (he has one in addition to a garage of exotics, so there must be something in it) and that something like this:
or possibly this
offers the best blend of modern performance and old-school lightness and involvement. The Type R has an engine to die for but the Clio has the more involving chassis, so I'll go for that and would probably plump for a 182 Cup in French Racing Blue and not have the stress of having to replace really expensive dampers! After this, hot hatches only got heavier and less exciting IMO!
Of the modern options, I would say these three (although I haven't driven any of them yet):
The Abarth and MINI have more showroom appeal but the Fiesta is probably the best drive and can be Mountuned to 215 bhp fairly inexpensively.
How about the worst hot hatch ever? Well, the nice thing about hot hatches normally is that you can make a decent hot hatch out of even the dullest hatchback
I owned one of these and quite liked the looks, interior and practicality but everything else (especially the 2.0 engine) was crap!
I'm still not sure how VW had the audacity to put a GTi badge on a 2.0 Golf (I don't think it was badged as a GTi in a lot of markets).
The Escort GTi was a pretty cynical attempt at a hot hatch too.
Perhaps the worst culprit though (and I'm sure I will get shot down in flames by someone who owns one and likes it) because I think they actually tried to make a good hot hatch (and certainly would have had the budget) to do so but only succeeded in making something as dull as the car it was based on, is the Toyota Corolla T-Sport
My advice? Sell it and get a proper hot hatch (like a CTR or Clio 182)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTTI-aMKn60
So, going by these criteria, which is the best (and worst) hot hatch:
1) Light (as close to a tonne as possible or lighter for good PWR and can be tracked as standard without cooking the tyres and brakes);
2) Small footprint to aid brisk progress on B-roads;
3) Fast enough to keep more expensive/exotic machinery honest on a twisty road;
4)Have a nod to practicality i.e. 4/5 seats and a boot i.e. not a stripped-out 2-seater special;
5) Affordable (hot hatches are supposed to be the working-class performance car, so cost less than 20,000 pounds in today's money);
6) Most importantly, fun and have fantastic handling.
Talking from personal experience (having owned one), this is my benchmark and probably my favourite in 1.9 flavour.
An oversized engine, in a very compact, light car with the minimum of mod cons. Personally, I like that it is NA for instant throttle response and that you have to work it to get the best from it. Still looks the part too!
Of its contemporaries, the mk1/2 Golf GTi ran it really close but was slower/heavier and a bit more practical and refined, which made it less fun but probably nicer to live with day-to-day IMHO.
However, I openly accept that they are hopelessly outgunned by modern standards and even a fastish 10 year old car (Impreza WRX perhaps) would leave one for dead.
Although I tried one when they were new with a view to purchase and didn't really "gel" with it, I have to concede that Harry is probably right (he has one in addition to a garage of exotics, so there must be something in it) and that something like this:
or possibly this
offers the best blend of modern performance and old-school lightness and involvement. The Type R has an engine to die for but the Clio has the more involving chassis, so I'll go for that and would probably plump for a 182 Cup in French Racing Blue and not have the stress of having to replace really expensive dampers! After this, hot hatches only got heavier and less exciting IMO!
Of the modern options, I would say these three (although I haven't driven any of them yet):
The Abarth and MINI have more showroom appeal but the Fiesta is probably the best drive and can be Mountuned to 215 bhp fairly inexpensively.
How about the worst hot hatch ever? Well, the nice thing about hot hatches normally is that you can make a decent hot hatch out of even the dullest hatchback
I owned one of these and quite liked the looks, interior and practicality but everything else (especially the 2.0 engine) was crap!
I'm still not sure how VW had the audacity to put a GTi badge on a 2.0 Golf (I don't think it was badged as a GTi in a lot of markets).
The Escort GTi was a pretty cynical attempt at a hot hatch too.
Perhaps the worst culprit though (and I'm sure I will get shot down in flames by someone who owns one and likes it) because I think they actually tried to make a good hot hatch (and certainly would have had the budget) to do so but only succeeded in making something as dull as the car it was based on, is the Toyota Corolla T-Sport
My advice? Sell it and get a proper hot hatch (like a CTR or Clio 182)!
I've got a 205 parked outside so I'd better vote for that!
I had an Ignis Sport previously and that was a brilliant car. Small but practical inside, great handling and a revvy 107bhp engine in a 900kg car.
Loved every drive in it!
Worst was a Metro turbo I almost bought years ago but it could have just been a really bad example of the type.
I had an Ignis Sport previously and that was a brilliant car. Small but practical inside, great handling and a revvy 107bhp engine in a 900kg car.
Loved every drive in it!
Worst was a Metro turbo I almost bought years ago but it could have just been a really bad example of the type.
I'd have to agree - it might be worth reconsidering your view on the Trophy - those dampers help it carry a LOT of speed: Trophy video
I own a Twingo 133, which I'm quite stunned isn't mentioned anywhere in your clearly well researched post.
It's 1050kg, 133hp, N/A, practical and cheap - fits your criteria perfectly! It demands to be driven flat out everywhere and to me, it's one of the final 'true' hot hatches around (ceased production last year I think).
I haven't driven enough of them to come to any real judgement but, having owned one and from everything I've read, the Clio 182 is (probably) the best hot hatch ever made.
It's 1050kg, 133hp, N/A, practical and cheap - fits your criteria perfectly! It demands to be driven flat out everywhere and to me, it's one of the final 'true' hot hatches around (ceased production last year I think).
I haven't driven enough of them to come to any real judgement but, having owned one and from everything I've read, the Clio 182 is (probably) the best hot hatch ever made.
Best I'd say Renault Sport 172 a game changer at the time its competitor a Saxo VTS 120bhp v 172bhp and superb handling plus it had all the options on it. Only downside was drivers seat too high as in you sat on the car rather than in the car.
Worst Polo G40 (a sales flop but I think they are great), nova 1.3 SR/1.6 GSI terrible cars
Worst Polo G40 (a sales flop but I think they are great), nova 1.3 SR/1.6 GSI terrible cars
Patch888 said:
For me they have already been mentioned above....
Best CTR ep3.
Worst mk4 golf GTI.
I treated myself to a nice standard ep3 2 months ago to use as my work car, it's 13 years old now but still superb!
I've always liked this model CTR do they still cut it today are they still fun and do most not have air on? Best CTR ep3.
Worst mk4 golf GTI.
I treated myself to a nice standard ep3 2 months ago to use as my work car, it's 13 years old now but still superb!
A glance at Trader shows they start from £3k ish that's a lot of car for the £.
white_goodman said:
Sorry, I know this topic has been flogged to death but I saw this video clip on the Clio Cup vs Audi R8 thread yesterday and it kind of made me re-evaluate my criteria for what makes a great hot hatch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTTI-aMKn60
So, going by these criteria, which is the best (and worst) hot hatch:
1) Light (as close to a tonne as possible or lighter for good PWR and can be tracked as standard without cooking the tyres and brakes);
2) Small footprint to aid brisk progress on B-roads;
3) Fast enough to keep more expensive/exotic machinery honest on a twisty road;
4)Have a nod to practicality i.e. 4/5 seats and a boot i.e. not a stripped-out 2-seater special;
5) Affordable (hot hatches are supposed to be the working-class performance car, so cost less than 20,000 pounds in today's money);
6) Most importantly, fun and have fantastic handling.
Talking from personal experience (having owned one), this is my benchmark and probably my favourite in 1.9 flavour.
An oversized engine, in a very compact, light car with the minimum of mod cons. Personally, I like that it is NA for instant throttle response and that you have to work it to get the best from it. Still looks the part too!
I think, depending on your inflation calculator, that the 1.9 would blow the £20k limit. Remember going with my friend to buy his first one in 1988 and it was around £10k then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTTI-aMKn60
So, going by these criteria, which is the best (and worst) hot hatch:
1) Light (as close to a tonne as possible or lighter for good PWR and can be tracked as standard without cooking the tyres and brakes);
2) Small footprint to aid brisk progress on B-roads;
3) Fast enough to keep more expensive/exotic machinery honest on a twisty road;
4)Have a nod to practicality i.e. 4/5 seats and a boot i.e. not a stripped-out 2-seater special;
5) Affordable (hot hatches are supposed to be the working-class performance car, so cost less than 20,000 pounds in today's money);
6) Most importantly, fun and have fantastic handling.
Talking from personal experience (having owned one), this is my benchmark and probably my favourite in 1.9 flavour.
An oversized engine, in a very compact, light car with the minimum of mod cons. Personally, I like that it is NA for instant throttle response and that you have to work it to get the best from it. Still looks the part too!
( unless you mean second hand now? )
Welshbeef said:
Patch888 said:
For me they have already been mentioned above....
Best CTR ep3.
Worst mk4 golf GTI.
I treated myself to a nice standard ep3 2 months ago to use as my work car, it's 13 years old now but still superb!
I've always liked this model CTR do they still cut it today are they still fun and do most not have air on? Best CTR ep3.
Worst mk4 golf GTI.
I treated myself to a nice standard ep3 2 months ago to use as my work car, it's 13 years old now but still superb!
A glance at Trader shows they start from £3k ish that's a lot of car for the £.
Not sure what VW were thinking with the MK4 platform.
Genuinely I don't, please can someone tell me or link me to the info.
I know they made a bunch of petrols ranging from 1.6 up to the 3.2 R32. In between we had the 1.8T with various power outputs. We had a V5 petrol. The diesels went up to a GT TDI with 150HP.
How many f
king engines did they need?
Genuinely I don't, please can someone tell me or link me to the info.
I know they made a bunch of petrols ranging from 1.6 up to the 3.2 R32. In between we had the 1.8T with various power outputs. We had a V5 petrol. The diesels went up to a GT TDI with 150HP.
How many f
king engines did they need?Uncle John said:
Wow! You've thought about this haven't you?
Well prepared.
For me and IME best - mk 2 Focus RS
Worst MG Metro
mk2 Focus RS would be my knee-jerk reaction in these type of threads too. Arguably, the fastest, most powerful hot hatch, exclusive and a very characterful engine. It would be a car I would very much like to own. Probably easy and comfortable to live with every day, good motorway/track companion or for a hoon, practical enough for the family etc.Well prepared.
For me and IME best - mk 2 Focus RS
Worst MG Metro
However, against the criteria. It's too big, too heavy and too expensive. I've not driven an RS but I have driven a mate's mk2 ST 3dr and it did feel big, even compared to the WRX Wagon I was used to. Looking at the stats, it's nearly as heavy as my WRX (and that's just with FWD), nearly as long and significantly wider. I concluded that the engine was more flexible and sounded nicer than the my WRX (although the turbos on the WRX are whooshier) and the gearshift was better but the WRX felt more compact and agile, particularly on narrow B-roads. I would expect the RS to be similar but faster and I'm sure it would be quite a weapon on a fast, flowing A-road or a smooth, wide race track but I'm not sure if that is what a hot hatch should all be about! Also, a used Mountuned ST would be considerably cheaper and as quick, if not quite as special!
Regarding the MG Metro were they really that bad in their day? I know the Turbo is to be avoided and the cooking model didn't have much power (70bhp?) but my uncle used to be an Austin/Rover man and had a white G-plater (must have been one of the last ones?) and still maintains that it was his favourite car! I remember going to stay with him when I was 8 and he took me to see the stock car racing and on the way back we decided to see what it would do and he hit an indicated 110mph! Not too shabby! Did these have the Hydragas suspension too or was that only the later "Rover" Metro?
I remember it fondly, as my mum got one of these a few years later and it reminded me of that MG and was the first car that I drove for a few months before I got my own car.
Only a 55bhp 1.1 but it felt a lot faster than it had any right to and (don't laugh) handled a bit like a mini-205 GTi (I feel that I can say that, as have also owned a 205 GTi)! Not quite as polished, I'll grant you and more body roll but fantastic steering feel and excellent fun! Maybe pushing the definition of hot hatch a bit too far but it had a lot of the basic elements right (maybe I can find a clean one, one day and do an Integrale engine conversion)!
Back on topic, you're still entitled to your opinion though
s m said:
I think, depending on your inflation calculator, that the 1.9 would blow the £20k limit. Remember going with my friend to buy his first one in 1988 and it was around £10k then
( unless you mean second hand now? )
Fair point. All I know was that my parents could afford one back in the day but despite my protestations weren't really into fast cars, so we had a 2CV instead ( unless you mean second hand now? )
Now they've retired though, they have just bought a new MX5, so it has only taken me 33 years to influence them to get a sporty car!
In all serious though, what was the best-selling car in the UK in the 205's heyday? Sierra/Cavalier? Surely a 205 GTi couldn't have cost more than a mid-spec Sierra/Cavalier? How much new Mondeo can you buy for Fiesta ST money now these days?
I'd definitely err on the side of the 172/182 cars as being the best. Although lacking power by todays standards of 240hp+ for a 'hot hatch', they offered a really rewarding drive for relatively little money. You can pick ones up these days for about a bag of sand, are still relatively modern looking IMO.
I'd put an MG Maestro on the list of one of the worst, a proper parts bin special...
I'd put an MG Maestro on the list of one of the worst, a proper parts bin special...
white_goodman said:
offers the best blend of modern performance and old-school lightness and involvement. The Type R has an engine to die for but the Clio has the more involving chassis, so I'll go for that and would probably plump for a 182 Cup in French Racing Blue and not have the stress of having to replace really expensive dampers! After this, hot hatches only got heavier and less exciting IMO!
I've always been a fan of sporty coupe's and grand tourers and have owned a few, but a few months ago i was finally allowed to replace the misses shopping trolley (corsa) with something more fun but similar size. So i bought a 182 (same colour, minus the stripes) thas was well looked after and pampers by its previous owner, and i must admit i do really enjoy the little thing.We've got some nice little twisty roads in this area, and were i'd normally take the 3000GT for a blast round the countryside i actually enjoy that blast more in the 182, it is so responsive and handles great, you can litterly tuck in into any corner at high speed and you'll be fine.
I have a deep love for the R53 MINI's my old Cooper S remains in my eyes the best hot hatch Ive driven in, mainly down to a few very good suspension changes (Cross competition coilovers, braces and fully polly bushed and decent tyres). I tuned it to 220 bhp and it was faultless, ate CTR's etc for breakfast and the closest thing it was compared to handling wise was an Elise (John Barker of EVO's words when he drove it at Bedford).
I miss that thing a lot.
Currently I have a lot of love for Alfa's with my 145 Cloverleaf track project. 14 years old and they out handle most modern hot hatches Ive driven with ease, 155 bhp and it loves to rev. they rust though, properly rust.
I miss that thing a lot.
Currently I have a lot of love for Alfa's with my 145 Cloverleaf track project. 14 years old and they out handle most modern hot hatches Ive driven with ease, 155 bhp and it loves to rev. they rust though, properly rust.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff