Climbing Seated
Discussion
Fun blast through the hills last night, however it also underlined how my climbing technique seems to differ from some of the other riders I was with - not in a positive way.
This was the first time I've been able to get up a local Cat4 climb seated. Normally at the point it steepens to a 23% gradient I have to get up out of the saddle to keep the pedals moving at anything approaching a decent speed.
In this case it was because my winter bike / backup road bike I was on has ludicrous gearing (Compact crank, 11/32 at the rear) and I was spinning up that section in 34/32.
Is it purely a case of MTFU and when my legs are a little stronger the gear I can spin seated will shrink, or could there be technique or skills to look into?
I've always struggled climbing (hence the wifli setup), slowly improving - but on the bright side there aren't many who can keep up on a descent
This was the first time I've been able to get up a local Cat4 climb seated. Normally at the point it steepens to a 23% gradient I have to get up out of the saddle to keep the pedals moving at anything approaching a decent speed.
In this case it was because my winter bike / backup road bike I was on has ludicrous gearing (Compact crank, 11/32 at the rear) and I was spinning up that section in 34/32.
Is it purely a case of MTFU and when my legs are a little stronger the gear I can spin seated will shrink, or could there be technique or skills to look into?
I've always struggled climbing (hence the wifli setup), slowly improving - but on the bright side there aren't many who can keep up on a descent
At a guess, there aren't many hills in this country where you will get a sustained 23% gradient for any more than 20 - 30 second bursts, in which case, getting out the saddle makes complete sense to me. Then just drop back in the saddle and spin out the rest of the hill.
I sit for 90% of climbing, spinning at a high cadence if the gradient allows, but there no way i'd be able to spin up 23% even in my lowest gear.
I sit for 90% of climbing, spinning at a high cadence if the gradient allows, but there no way i'd be able to spin up 23% even in my lowest gear.
ChrisMCoupe said:
At a guess, there aren't many hills in this country where you will get a sustained 23% gradient for any more than 20 - 30 second bursts, in which case, getting out the saddle makes complete sense to me. Then just drop back in the saddle and spin out the rest of the hill.
I sit for 90% of climbing, spinning at a high cadence if the gradient allows, but there no way i'd be able to spin up 23% even in my lowest gear.
Me neither, however the guys I was following (funnily enough the guys faster than me are normally ahead) never moved from the saddle. Then dropped a gear when the gradient let off a bit and pulled inexorably ahead to a 200m lead by the stopping point.I sit for 90% of climbing, spinning at a high cadence if the gradient allows, but there no way i'd be able to spin up 23% even in my lowest gear.
The main reason for asking is it seems faster - I took a second off my best time up there spinning a very low gear (on a heavier bike) instead of out of the saddle in a higher one on a much nicer bit of kit.
TheLemming said:
Me neither, however the guys I was following (funnily enough the guys faster than me are normally ahead) never moved from the saddle. Then dropped a gear when the gradient let off a bit and pulled inexorably ahead to a 200m lead by the stopping point.
The main reason for asking is it seems faster - I took a second off my best time up there spinning a very low gear (on a heavier bike) instead of out of the saddle in a higher one on a much nicer bit of kit.
Wiggins always climbs seated. Contador always climbs standing. Nibali alternates between the two.The main reason for asking is it seems faster - I took a second off my best time up there spinning a very low gear (on a heavier bike) instead of out of the saddle in a higher one on a much nicer bit of kit.
Make of that what you will
I don't think it is just a case of standing vs seated, technique plays a big part - cadence, bike position, ability to output a decent level of sustained power all pay their part!
I climb most of the time seated, but there are points where I make better progress out of the saddle (one eye on the garmin confirms this). When I am out of the saddle I keep my elbows in, shoulders straight, and try to power from the hips down, keeping my upper body as steady as possible - works for me. Also, capitalise on any 'flat spots' on the climb, don't sit back and rest, use them to push on - you will be amazed the difference it makes!
I climb most of the time seated, but there are points where I make better progress out of the saddle (one eye on the garmin confirms this). When I am out of the saddle I keep my elbows in, shoulders straight, and try to power from the hips down, keeping my upper body as steady as possible - works for me. Also, capitalise on any 'flat spots' on the climb, don't sit back and rest, use them to push on - you will be amazed the difference it makes!
MadDad said:
Also, capitalise on any 'flat spots' on the climb, don't sit back and rest, use them to push on - you will be amazed the difference it makes!
Agree with this, false flats are never a resting point Also, if you're in a fast group, suck someones wheel, even on a climb you will be amazed at the difference it makes, it may mean you can remain seated and spinning where solo you might not.
Seated puts the emphasis on hamstrings, standing puts it on your quads.
If you train at the gym to spend extended periods out of the saddle (such as from doing it on a spin bike), you can really improve your climbing speeds for short steep climbs.
The trouble with standing is that your quads are a big muscle group and your heart rate will go to zone 4 or 5, no matter how fit you are. Seated you can maintain zone 3 or 4.
It's good to be able to use both techniques effectively.
If you train at the gym to spend extended periods out of the saddle (such as from doing it on a spin bike), you can really improve your climbing speeds for short steep climbs.
The trouble with standing is that your quads are a big muscle group and your heart rate will go to zone 4 or 5, no matter how fit you are. Seated you can maintain zone 3 or 4.
It's good to be able to use both techniques effectively.
[quote=Raven Flyer]
The trouble with standing is that your quads are a big muscle group and your heart rate will go to zone 4 or 5, no matter how fit you are. Seated you can maintain zone 3 or 4.
[quote]
Now that explains a lot.
My lungs are currently my weak spot. 20 years of 40 a day till October last year means that they are basically shot.
I hit anaerobic and I have about 90 seconds to get it under control or I'm wrecked.
The trouble with standing is that your quads are a big muscle group and your heart rate will go to zone 4 or 5, no matter how fit you are. Seated you can maintain zone 3 or 4.
[quote]
Now that explains a lot.
My lungs are currently my weak spot. 20 years of 40 a day till October last year means that they are basically shot.
I hit anaerobic and I have about 90 seconds to get it under control or I'm wrecked.
Not sure what help it is to road riding, but after 4 months off injured, I came back to cycling on the MTB mainly off road in June.
There's a row of three short, sharp 'hills' on the MOD training area at Hawley Lake. They're all plagued by a very loose (in summer anyway) sand and gravel surface which, if you don't pick your route well, can dump you off due to loss of traction before your legs 'get you'. Anyways. When I first got back on, I couldn't face turning up even the gentlest of the three. Then as I built up some fitness, I started climbing the gentlest one, then gradually added in the other two. Last night I did a 12 mile/1hr25min session which basically took me up and down the lot, repeatedly. I managed a 'second fastest' time on the middle difficulty hill, and when I borrowed my son's bike for a couple of days last week, I managed a 'second fastest' time on the toughest of the three. What has made me the most happy, though, is that I now no longer need to drop into the little ring at the front, managing to get up in the middle ring.
I'm climbing them seated, but perched on the nose of the saddle, because I need to keep weight on the rear wheel to maintain traction, yet enough weight over the bars to avoid lifting the front wheel. As far as I can tell, the only ways to really improve your climbing are to do lots of climbing on the bike, or target the specific muscle groups in the gym. Then 'practice, practice, practice'
There's a row of three short, sharp 'hills' on the MOD training area at Hawley Lake. They're all plagued by a very loose (in summer anyway) sand and gravel surface which, if you don't pick your route well, can dump you off due to loss of traction before your legs 'get you'. Anyways. When I first got back on, I couldn't face turning up even the gentlest of the three. Then as I built up some fitness, I started climbing the gentlest one, then gradually added in the other two. Last night I did a 12 mile/1hr25min session which basically took me up and down the lot, repeatedly. I managed a 'second fastest' time on the middle difficulty hill, and when I borrowed my son's bike for a couple of days last week, I managed a 'second fastest' time on the toughest of the three. What has made me the most happy, though, is that I now no longer need to drop into the little ring at the front, managing to get up in the middle ring.
I'm climbing them seated, but perched on the nose of the saddle, because I need to keep weight on the rear wheel to maintain traction, yet enough weight over the bars to avoid lifting the front wheel. As far as I can tell, the only ways to really improve your climbing are to do lots of climbing on the bike, or target the specific muscle groups in the gym. Then 'practice, practice, practice'
I like standing, it just feels right to me, although I know the longer I can stay seated the longer before I go pop. I'm trying to lower my heart rate on rides generally, so have been staying seated as I work up the cassette and only standing when I'm on the biggest.
I think you need to be able to do both. Did a hilly event last year when my gears were 53/39 and 12/25; a mate who I would say is at the same level as me was on a compact with a 28 tooth cassette. On every hill he'd stay seated and I would be out of the saddle, and on every one he would pull away from me and end up 2-300m clear by the summit. I went for a bigger cassette when the 25 wore out!
I think you need to be able to do both. Did a hilly event last year when my gears were 53/39 and 12/25; a mate who I would say is at the same level as me was on a compact with a 28 tooth cassette. On every hill he'd stay seated and I would be out of the saddle, and on every one he would pull away from me and end up 2-300m clear by the summit. I went for a bigger cassette when the 25 wore out!
There's simply no right or wrong with this ... too many variables including body shape/type, length of climb, gradient and the length or ride you are on vs endurance and power.
For example on a 80 + mile ride in zone 2 & 3, I will remain seated on all but the very steepest of climbs which keeps my HR down and doesn't engage the upper body to the same extent as standing. I will ride with a high cadence for as much and possible.
At the opposing end, when on a ride of 25 miles to 50 miles, I will ride much harder in zone 4 and tackle the climbs in a higher gear and lower cadence with a mixture of standing and seated but certainly more time riding standing to generate greater power by using more of my upper body. This is by far the quickest way to climb but isn't the most efficient ... 4 or 5 of these intense bursts might get you a KOM or two in Strava but you'll spend the rest of the day languishing at the rear on a group ride or just blowing out of your arse on a soul destroying solo ride. Well, I would anyway.
For example on a 80 + mile ride in zone 2 & 3, I will remain seated on all but the very steepest of climbs which keeps my HR down and doesn't engage the upper body to the same extent as standing. I will ride with a high cadence for as much and possible.
At the opposing end, when on a ride of 25 miles to 50 miles, I will ride much harder in zone 4 and tackle the climbs in a higher gear and lower cadence with a mixture of standing and seated but certainly more time riding standing to generate greater power by using more of my upper body. This is by far the quickest way to climb but isn't the most efficient ... 4 or 5 of these intense bursts might get you a KOM or two in Strava but you'll spend the rest of the day languishing at the rear on a group ride or just blowing out of your arse on a soul destroying solo ride. Well, I would anyway.
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