Discussion
Morning, have just bought a gen 1 997 GT3 with Ceramics.
Have heard good and bad points about them the bad points mainly potential cracking on track days.
I want to keep them on rather than switch them out for Steels so I need to know how to look after them.
All info from cleaning to track day use (maybe 3 a year) and of course road use.
Tks in advance
Have heard good and bad points about them the bad points mainly potential cracking on track days.
I want to keep them on rather than switch them out for Steels so I need to know how to look after them.
All info from cleaning to track day use (maybe 3 a year) and of course road use.
Tks in advance
never seen any crack.
heat is the killer and the surface goes all rough,
People misuse them and go 300 laps in one go, then take the cars back under warranty when they have melted the pads off the backing plates.
key is change pads sooner than later say at 50% worn, Do cool down laps. (real ones)
I never see people do real cool down laps on track which I fine odd, they should be doing that with steels also.
and use them right, they work best using them hard and for little time, brake very late hard seems the key.
they don't need cleaning.
heat is the killer and the surface goes all rough,
People misuse them and go 300 laps in one go, then take the cars back under warranty when they have melted the pads off the backing plates.
key is change pads sooner than later say at 50% worn, Do cool down laps. (real ones)
I never see people do real cool down laps on track which I fine odd, they should be doing that with steels also.
and use them right, they work best using them hard and for little time, brake very late hard seems the key.
they don't need cleaning.
mrdemon said:
never seen any crack.
heat is the killer and the surface goes all rough,
People misuse them and go 300 laps in one go, then take the cars back under warranty when they have melted the pads off the backing plates.
key is change pads sooner than later say at 50% worn, Do cool down laps. (real ones)
I never see people do real cool down laps on track which I fine odd, they should be doing that with steels also.
and use them right, they work best using them hard and for little time, brake very late hard seems the key.
they don't need cleaning.
good point on the cool down laps...100% must......heat is the killer and the surface goes all rough,
People misuse them and go 300 laps in one go, then take the cars back under warranty when they have melted the pads off the backing plates.
key is change pads sooner than later say at 50% worn, Do cool down laps. (real ones)
I never see people do real cool down laps on track which I fine odd, they should be doing that with steels also.
and use them right, they work best using them hard and for little time, brake very late hard seems the key.
they don't need cleaning.
I learned the hard way by ruining the PCCBs on my 996 GT2 whilst at the Nurburgring. Discs were fine before the trip, put in new pads, went out for a few laps and the brakes were smoking when I came back in, over the following months the discs delaminated and had to be replaced.
Much more careful with my 997, its rarely tracked but when it is I'm very aware of managing the heat in the PCCBs. 16000 miles in and they're fine, car is on 32k now and the discs are as smooth as on new cars, my 996 discs failed at around 60,000 miles.
Much more careful with my 997, its rarely tracked but when it is I'm very aware of managing the heat in the PCCBs. 16000 miles in and they're fine, car is on 32k now and the discs are as smooth as on new cars, my 996 discs failed at around 60,000 miles.
996GT2 said:
I learned the hard way by ruining the PCCBs on my 996 GT2 whilst at the Nurburgring. Discs were fine before the trip, put in new pads, went out for a few laps and the brakes were smoking when I came back in, over the following months the discs delaminated and had to be replaced.
Much more careful with my 997, its rarely tracked but when it is I'm very aware of managing the heat in the PCCBs. 16000 miles in and they're fine, car is on 32k now and the discs are as smooth as on new cars, my 996 discs failed at around 60,000 miles.
Tks and did you replace with PCCB or go with streels? Much more careful with my 997, its rarely tracked but when it is I'm very aware of managing the heat in the PCCBs. 16000 miles in and they're fine, car is on 32k now and the discs are as smooth as on new cars, my 996 discs failed at around 60,000 miles.
60k miles seems very good to me no?
V12DRC said:
996GT2 said:
I learned the hard way by ruining the PCCBs on my 996 GT2 whilst at the Nurburgring. Discs were fine before the trip, put in new pads, went out for a few laps and the brakes were smoking when I came back in, over the following months the discs delaminated and had to be replaced.
Much more careful with my 997, its rarely tracked but when it is I'm very aware of managing the heat in the PCCBs. 16000 miles in and they're fine, car is on 32k now and the discs are as smooth as on new cars, my 996 discs failed at around 60,000 miles.
Tks and did you replace with PCCB or go with streels? Much more careful with my 997, its rarely tracked but when it is I'm very aware of managing the heat in the PCCBs. 16000 miles in and they're fine, car is on 32k now and the discs are as smooth as on new cars, my 996 discs failed at around 60,000 miles.
60k miles seems very good to me no?
They probably would have gone beyond 60k if I'd have been more careful. I'm hoping the 997 PCCBs outlast the warranty (another 4 years) at which point they'll most likely be switched to steels.
I've had a 997.1 GT3 with PCCBs (how I miss that car - KE07HVK where are you now?!) and now a slightly earlier 996tt S with PCCBs. Neither have been especially troublesome, although I am mainly a road user.
My understanding of the 50% rule is that beyond that point, the pads themselves don't dissipate enough heat, so there's increased chance of overheating the discs. Not sure how accurate that is however. What is true about the PCCB pads is that they have a nasty habit of disintegrating with age rather than wear. My 996's inner front pads had separated from the backing plate at well under 50% worn, resulting in a £400 bill for a new pair that I wasn't expecting.
To keep the heat down on track, the best suggestions I've heard are to do cool down laps (already said), turn off PSM (if you have it - not on a 997.1 GT3), and get into the habit of braking hard in one hit, rather than a gentle drag on the brakes. I suspect the latter is a major cause of issues for new track drivers; if you aren't aggressive enough, you can get the brakes very hot without going that quickly. That's my problem as a complete track wimp, anyway!
My understanding of the 50% rule is that beyond that point, the pads themselves don't dissipate enough heat, so there's increased chance of overheating the discs. Not sure how accurate that is however. What is true about the PCCB pads is that they have a nasty habit of disintegrating with age rather than wear. My 996's inner front pads had separated from the backing plate at well under 50% worn, resulting in a £400 bill for a new pair that I wasn't expecting.
To keep the heat down on track, the best suggestions I've heard are to do cool down laps (already said), turn off PSM (if you have it - not on a 997.1 GT3), and get into the habit of braking hard in one hit, rather than a gentle drag on the brakes. I suspect the latter is a major cause of issues for new track drivers; if you aren't aggressive enough, you can get the brakes very hot without going that quickly. That's my problem as a complete track wimp, anyway!
996GT2 said:
The car was out of Porsche warranty at the time and dropping 12 grand on brakes seemed a bit excessive so I went with steels - Performance Friction fronts and 997 GT3 rears. The extra weight was noticeable but the braking was great, it was nice to be able to slam the brakes on and not worry about the discs!
They probably would have gone beyond 60k if I'd have been more careful. I'm hoping the 997 PCCBs outlast the warranty (another 4 years) at which point they'll most likely be switched to steels.
Great stuffThey probably would have gone beyond 60k if I'd have been more careful. I'm hoping the 997 PCCBs outlast the warranty (another 4 years) at which point they'll most likely be switched to steels.
So the cars currently on 14k miles so given my expected 5k mileage plus 3 track days forgetting pads I've got a good while with them yet but once done ultimately would switch to steels.
I'm assuming I can keep the yellow calipers if I switch ?
They look great against black wheels
V12DRC said:
Tks Mr Demon.
Why change when rears are only half worn?
I'd have thought close to low would be fine providing you don't go too low as this doesn't sound like it makes them very cosy efficient vs running steels.
Given my intended use would you change them ?
Why change at 50% ? Why change when rears are only half worn?
I'd have thought close to low would be fine providing you don't go too low as this doesn't sound like it makes them very cosy efficient vs running steels.
Given my intended use would you change them ?
The rear brakes on the 997 GT3 are used as part of the traction/stability control mechanism. Thus they'll be working harder and more of the time than you may imagine.
PCCB's are all a out heat management, pure and simple. As I and others found out, the Gen I PCCB's fitted to the 996 GT2 and 3 were not up to the job of shedding heat sufficiently quickly to maintain both the disc face or the pads at temperatures that would ensure their longevity.
If the discs overheat, excess oxidation occurs and the faces start to wear prematurely. Once this process begins it's only a matter of time before the wear faces start to delaminate from the substrate they're glued (yes really) onto.
A brake pad's ability to shed heat will be dependant to a degree on it's mass. A pad worn down to 2-3 mm thick will run hotter than a new or 50% worn pad, that addional heat will be a major factor in accelerating the disc wear.
It's also a little known fact that older heat cycled pads tend to have a lower coefficient off friction than new/er pads, as the heat cycling of the pad slowly removes various components in the pad material, thereby reducing its efficiency. This too only serves to make the pad run hotter.
Lots more info on Rennlist.
If you want complete peace of mind, fit the Alcon CCM replacement discs, they're made using a different process that means the disc is homogenous and that doesn't rely on a wear face that's incredibly thin and thus liable to wear out.
Alcon have a deal on currently, you'd be able to replace your PCCB's for the cost of 2 Alcon steel conversions.
If you look after the CCM discs they'd be very saleable if removed from the car before its sale. They're even bigger than the standard 997 GT3 PCCB's (the Alcons utilise 390mm front discs).
Edited by Slippydiff on Thursday 7th August 11:27
V12DRC said:
Tks Mr Demon.
Why change when rears are only half worn?
I'd have thought close to low would be fine providing you don't go too low as this doesn't sound like it makes them very cosy efficient vs running steels.
Given my intended use would you change them ?
if you have old pads yes, just changed my rears the pins were showing though and the pad was no where near the wear sensor yetWhy change when rears are only half worn?
I'd have thought close to low would be fine providing you don't go too low as this doesn't sound like it makes them very cosy efficient vs running steels.
Given my intended use would you change them ?
I have seen this in the past with the pads pins showing though, which while ok on steels as they are brass, not so great having pins hits your ceramics. the new pads look like a newer design, so I hope they have changed the pins also.
Slippydiff said:
Why change at 50% ?
The rear brakes on the 997 GT3 are used as part of the traction/stability control mechanism. Thus they'll be working harder and more of the time than you may imagine.
PCCB's are all a out heat management, pure and simple. As I and others found out, the Gen I PCCB's fitted to the 996 GT2 and 3 were not up to the job of shedding heat sufficiently quickly to maintain both the disc face or the pads at temperatures that would ensure their longevity.
If the discs overheat, excess oxidation occurs and the faces start to wear prematurely. Once this process begins it's only a matter of time before the wear faces start to delaminate from the substrate they're glued (yes really) onto.
A brake pad's ability to shed heat will be dependant to a degree on it's mass. A pad worn down to 2-3 mm thick will run hotter than a new or 50% worn pad, that addional heat will be a major factor in accelerating the disc wear.
It's also a little known fact that older heat cycled pads tend to have a lower coefficient off friction than new/er pads, as the heat cycling of the pad slowly removes various components in the pad material, thereby reducing its efficiency. This too only serves to make the pad run hotter.
Lots more info on Rennlist.
If you want complete peace of mind, fit the Alcon CCM replacement discs, they're made using a different process that means the disc is homogenous and that doesn't rely on a wear face that's incredibly thin and thus liable to wear out.
Alcon have a deal on currently, you'd be able to replace your PCCB's for the cost of 2 Alcon steel conversions.
If you look after the CCM discs they'd be very saleable if removed from the car before its sale. They're even bigger than the standard 997 GT3 PCCB's (the Alcons utilise 390mm front discs).
Slippy I'm liking the sound of switching the ceramics for two sets of Alcons do you mean ? The rear brakes on the 997 GT3 are used as part of the traction/stability control mechanism. Thus they'll be working harder and more of the time than you may imagine.
PCCB's are all a out heat management, pure and simple. As I and others found out, the Gen I PCCB's fitted to the 996 GT2 and 3 were not up to the job of shedding heat sufficiently quickly to maintain both the disc face or the pads at temperatures that would ensure their longevity.
If the discs overheat, excess oxidation occurs and the faces start to wear prematurely. Once this process begins it's only a matter of time before the wear faces start to delaminate from the substrate they're glued (yes really) onto.
A brake pad's ability to shed heat will be dependant to a degree on it's mass. A pad worn down to 2-3 mm thick will run hotter than a new or 50% worn pad, that addional heat will be a major factor in accelerating the disc wear.
It's also a little known fact that older heat cycled pads tend to have a lower coefficient off friction than new/er pads, as the heat cycling of the pad slowly removes various components in the pad material, thereby reducing its efficiency. This too only serves to make the pad run hotter.
Lots more info on Rennlist.
If you want complete peace of mind, fit the Alcon CCM replacement discs, they're made using a different process that means the disc is homogenous and that doesn't rely on a wear face that's incredibly thin and thus liable to wear out.
Alcon have a deal on currently, you'd be able to replace your PCCB's for the cost of 2 Alcon steel conversions.
If you look after the CCM discs they'd be very saleable if removed from the car before its sale. They're even bigger than the standard 997 GT3 PCCB's (the Alcons utilise 390mm front discs).
Edited by Slippydiff on Thursday 7th August 11:27
If this is the case providing I can keep the yellow calipers then I'm wondering what the point of ceramics are really
a ceramic disk weighs 12:lbs, a 2 pieces weight 22:lbs a 1 pieces 26:lbs if the same size on 350mm Cayman Sizes.
x that by 4 and 56lbs unsprung weight saving and the turn in is def better driving my 2 cars back to back with back to back same geo's on both. just the icing on the cake but like many I will fit Brembo steels when I have to replace them.
x that by 4 and 56lbs unsprung weight saving and the turn in is def better driving my 2 cars back to back with back to back same geo's on both. just the icing on the cake but like many I will fit Brembo steels when I have to replace them.
mrdemon said:
if you have old pads yes, just changed my rears the pins were showing though and the pad was no where near the wear sensor yet
I have seen this in the past with the pads pins showing though, which while ok on steels as they are brass, not so great having pins hits your ceramics. the new pads look like a newer design, so I hope they have changed the pins also.
You said you changed pads before they were worn, and the 'Pins were showing'. What pins are they? Surely something that could damage the disc wouldn't be showing through before worn? I hope! I have seen this in the past with the pads pins showing though, which while ok on steels as they are brass, not so great having pins hits your ceramics. the new pads look like a newer design, so I hope they have changed the pins also.
lingus75 said:
You said you changed pads before they were worn, and the 'Pins were showing'. What pins are they? Surely something that could damage the disc wouldn't be showing through before worn? I hope!
knows issues !!!http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=816...
might give mine back to Porsche and ask them what's going on, as on a PCCB car that could have been expensive !!!
Edited by mrdemon on Thursday 7th August 12:33
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