Older, inefficient cars- priced / legislated off the road?
Discussion
'If' or 'When' is the most pertinent question I suppose. I guess they're most likely to do it with increases in RFL, perhaps now is the time as RFL will be paid monthly and on a direct debit by many. Maybe the low emission zone principle will be extended to passenger vehicles and expanded in area so that it spreads like a rash from our major cities.
Or maybe some bright spark will recognise that taxing the poor until they sign on the dotted line for an efficient new car they can't afford isn't such a great idea in the grander scheme and leave the dwindling numbers of older cars alone?
Am I being uncharacteristically pesimistic?
Or maybe some bright spark will recognise that taxing the poor until they sign on the dotted line for an efficient new car they can't afford isn't such a great idea in the grander scheme and leave the dwindling numbers of older cars alone?
Am I being uncharacteristically pesimistic?
BritishRacinGrin said:
'If' or 'When' is the most pertinent question I suppose. I guess they're most likely to do it with increases in RFL, perhaps now is the time as RFL will be paid monthly and on a direct debit by many. Maybe the low emission zone principle will be extended to passenger vehicles and expanded in area so that it spreads like a rash from our major cities.
Or maybe some bright spark will recognise that taxing the poor until they sign on the dotted line for an efficient new car they can't afford isn't such a great idea in the grander scheme and leave the dwindling numbers of older cars alone?
Am I being uncharacteristically pesimistic?
I don't think there's any chance of that. - Too many vested interests.Or maybe some bright spark will recognise that taxing the poor until they sign on the dotted line for an efficient new car they can't afford isn't such a great idea in the grander scheme and leave the dwindling numbers of older cars alone?
Am I being uncharacteristically pesimistic?
Unfortunately, we're already full speed ahead on the slippery slope. All to soon, the only pleasure to be taken from motoring will be derived from what you can do whilst the Google taxi (or similar) drives itself.
I doubt it will happen; old cars represent a tiny proportion of what's on the road these days. I was just observing this driving home the other day and trying to see how many cars I could spot with a prefix (ie. pre 51 plate) cars I could spot in 34 miles. I saw a P reg Transit. And I live in the north where everyone is poor.
Also by not hitting these cars the powers that be can claim to NOT be clobbering the less well-off in their old cars, when in fact they are just such an insignificant number that in financial terms it doesn't matter. They're off the radar.
Also by not hitting these cars the powers that be can claim to NOT be clobbering the less well-off in their old cars, when in fact they are just such an insignificant number that in financial terms it doesn't matter. They're off the radar.
I'd say it's the opposite. Properly old (not just a few years old) cars pay VED purely on engine size split into big/small. Properly inefficient cars with massive engines registered pre March 2001 only pay £225 per year. This is less than a Band J car (186–200g/km). So go and buy a nice M5 or V8 Jag of the right age and pay relatively low VED 
trashbat said:
I ask you this: in what way does the government currently price you out of owning a classic car?
Answer: none. It's a folly that's positively incentivised, perhaps borne of the fear of all Britain's roads being brought down to 45mph by protesting MGBers.
Is every car over 5 years old a classic? Answer: none. It's a folly that's positively incentivised, perhaps borne of the fear of all Britain's roads being brought down to 45mph by protesting MGBers.
Stricter emissions targets with little relevance to real usage are requiring evermore complex systems. A small failure can then make them uneconomic to repair at under 10 years old.
trashbat said:
I ask you this: in what way does the government currently price you out of owning a classic car?
Answer: none. It's a folly that's positively incentivised, perhaps borne of the fear of all Britain's roads being brought down to 45mph by protesting MGBers.
That is protesting in an MGB, that's hooning !Answer: none. It's a folly that's positively incentivised, perhaps borne of the fear of all Britain's roads being brought down to 45mph by protesting MGBers.
There is no need for the UK government to price older (10 years+) cars off the road in the UK given the rampant new-plate snobbery of the UK market, the short attention span of most of the car-buying public combined with its susceptibility to 'fashion' driven by marketing departments, and the general pub view that an infinite series of never-never finance agreements are somehow cheaper than actually owning a car and keeping it running properly for a decade or two through actual planned maintenance and refurbishment (as opposed to minimum-intervention 'servicing').
Every other car market I know keeps its cars running for a lot longer than the UK: probably 19 out of 20 UK cars are scrapped before they are 15 years old, so the government does not need to do what private owners already choose to do for themselves.
Every other car market I know keeps its cars running for a lot longer than the UK: probably 19 out of 20 UK cars are scrapped before they are 15 years old, so the government does not need to do what private owners already choose to do for themselves.
Lowtimer said:
There is no need for the UK government to price older (10 years+) cars off the road in the UK given the rampant new-plate snobbery of the UK market, the short attention span of most of the car-buying public combined with its susceptibility to 'fashion' driven by marketing departments, and the general pub view that an infinite series of never-never finance agreements are somehow cheaper than actually owning a car and keeping it running properly for a decade or two through actual planned maintenance and refurbishment (as opposed to minimum-intervention 'servicing').
Every other car market I know keeps its cars running for a lot longer than the UK: probably 19 out of 20 UK cars are scrapped before they are 15 years old, so the government does not need to do what private owners already choose to do for themselves.
Realistically once a car hits probably 12+ years they're usually one big bill away from being scrapped - unless of course they're owned by an enthusiast or have a value in excess of what would be considered a big bill.Every other car market I know keeps its cars running for a lot longer than the UK: probably 19 out of 20 UK cars are scrapped before they are 15 years old, so the government does not need to do what private owners already choose to do for themselves.
ie, an £800 bill will put a 13yo £500 car off the road, but it wont put a 13yo £5K car off the road.
Very little to do with whats happening at the "new" end of the market as people driving £500 kit dont really give a stuff about PCP deals or newest trends, they're typically just trying to keep their heads above water.
Ed. said:
Is every car over 5 years old a classic?
Stricter emissions targets with little relevance to real usage are requiring evermore complex systems. A small failure can then make them uneconomic to repair at under 10 years old.
It is interesting to look at a picture of a scrapyard from the 80's and see that, despite all the claimed improvements in reliability, the average age of its residents is little different than todayStricter emissions targets with little relevance to real usage are requiring evermore complex systems. A small failure can then make them uneconomic to repair at under 10 years old.
Negative Creep said:
Ed. said:
Is every car over 5 years old a classic?
Stricter emissions targets with little relevance to real usage are requiring evermore complex systems. A small failure can then make them uneconomic to repair at under 10 years old.
It is interesting to look at a picture of a scrapyard from the 80's and see that, despite all the claimed improvements in reliability, the average age of its residents is little different than todayStricter emissions targets with little relevance to real usage are requiring evermore complex systems. A small failure can then make them uneconomic to repair at under 10 years old.
The point where many British people decide a car is uneconomic to repair can be comical at times. It's only uneconomical to repair a car when the cost of repair exceeds the cost of buying another car. Partly that's down to finance which frankly most people CAN afford or you'd just swallow the repair bill, and partly it's down to the UK's unusual attraction to shiny new cars and subsequently lower used values than many other places in the world. In many other countries (including developed ones) used cars are worth significantly more in recognition of their fitness for purpose as transport and when they break they get fixed. In the UK anything over 12 years old is worth less than an XBox One.
A £1000 repair bill only becomes an uneconomic repair if you can buy a fully functioning car for £999; otherwise, it's just an expensive repair bill.
Edited by jamieduff1981 on Friday 8th August 12:08
daemon said:
Realistically once a car hits probably 12+ years they're usually one big bill away from being scrapped - unless of course they're owned by an enthusiast or have a value in excess of what would be considered a big bill.
ie, an £800 bill will put a 13yo £500 car off the road, but it wont put a 13yo £5K car off the road.
Very little to do with whats happening at the "new" end of the market as people driving £500 kit dont really give a stuff about PCP deals or newest trends, they're typically just trying to keep their heads above water.
Yes but that a 13 yo car being worth only £500 is artificially low in this country. The £1k-£5K smoker barge thread is the living proof of this. Go to Germany or the USA and see what a 13yo E39 540i or S-Class costs - they are double or treble what they go for in this country. ie, an £800 bill will put a 13yo £500 car off the road, but it wont put a 13yo £5K car off the road.
Very little to do with whats happening at the "new" end of the market as people driving £500 kit dont really give a stuff about PCP deals or newest trends, they're typically just trying to keep their heads above water.
I think that's because people in this country are obsessed with the perceived status of new shiny things, and also don't properly price in the true economic cost of continually borrowing to buy new cars instead of the lower costs of maintaining thigs properly so that they last for 20 years instead of being scrapped at 10.
There is no reason at all why you should scrap a 13 year old 5 series because you believe it is worth less than the cost of a clutch replacement. Doing so is penny-wise and pound foolish. The fact that you cannot re-sell the car for the sum that you put into maintaining it is meaningless and unimportant. You never get back the money you put into finance charges, or fuel, or insurance, so why treat that differently from the money you put into maintenance?
If a car goes from £50K to worthless in 15 years then the punter is paying for it one way or another. Mainly that's through finance charges. Keep the thing going for an extra five years by putting in £150 a month into maintenance and ongoing refurb rather than monthy finance charges and you end up paying a lot less
jamieduff1981 said:
A £1000 repair bill only becomes an uneconomic repair if you can buy a fully functioning car for £999; otherwise, it's just an expensive repair bill.
Agreed. But that could be an argument for repair and sell on, not necessarily to keep the car because you could be expecting another £1,000 repair bill next month.(I'm being mildly facetious but at some point it's not the current repair you're worried about so much as the one after that).
Lowtimer said:
There is no reason at all why you should scrap a 13 year old 5 series because you believe it is worth less than the cost of a clutch replacement. Doing so is penny-wise and pound foolish. The fact that you cannot re-sell the car for the sum that you put into maintaining it is meaningless and unimportant. You never get back the money you put into finance charges, or fuel, or insurance, so why treat that differently from the money you put into maintenance?
I agree with most of what you wrote but this is simply wrong.The reason you scrap it is because it is cheaper to buy the exact same car for less than the cost of the maintenance.
Obviously you are assuming that the clutch has already been done on the replacement car but that's it.
The choice is £1k (say) on a new clutch and I have a working £800 13-year-old 5 series OR I simply go and buy a £800 13-year-old 5 series with an OK clutch.
I am in the exact same end position for a £200 saving.
That's why you scrap it.
The reason for the incredibly cheap second hand market is as you say the obsession with reg numbers, company cars and easy access to finance.
J4CKO said:
trashbat said:
I ask you this: in what way does the government currently price you out of owning a classic car?
Answer: none. It's a folly that's positively incentivised, perhaps borne of the fear of all Britain's roads being brought down to 45mph by protesting MGBers.
That is protesting in an MGB, that's hooning !Answer: none. It's a folly that's positively incentivised, perhaps borne of the fear of all Britain's roads being brought down to 45mph by protesting MGBers.
Lowtimer said:
daemon said:
Realistically once a car hits probably 12+ years they're usually one big bill away from being scrapped - unless of course they're owned by an enthusiast or have a value in excess of what would be considered a big bill.
ie, an £800 bill will put a 13yo £500 car off the road, but it wont put a 13yo £5K car off the road.
Very little to do with whats happening at the "new" end of the market as people driving £500 kit dont really give a stuff about PCP deals or newest trends, they're typically just trying to keep their heads above water.
Yes but that a 13 yo car being worth only £500 is artificially low in this country. The £1k-£5K smoker barge thread is the living proof of this. Go to Germany or the USA and see what a 13yo E39 540i or S-Class costs - they are double or treble what they go for in this country. ie, an £800 bill will put a 13yo £500 car off the road, but it wont put a 13yo £5K car off the road.
Very little to do with whats happening at the "new" end of the market as people driving £500 kit dont really give a stuff about PCP deals or newest trends, they're typically just trying to keep their heads above water.
Lowtimer said:
I think that's because people in this country are obsessed with the perceived status of new shiny things, and also don't properly price in the true economic cost of continually borrowing to buy new cars instead of the lower costs of maintaining thigs properly so that they last for 20 years instead of being scrapped at 10.
I dont agree. I sold cars under £5000 for manys a year there and the sort of person who bought and drove something at £500 was most concerned with getting themselves from A to B reliably for as long as possible. People changing out of a £500 car tended to be doing so because (a) they needed a different type of car (bigger, smaller, automatic, people carrier), (b) they were having problems with the car and wanted something more reliable or there was a big bill looming and they would rather have put the cost of the bill towards getting something more reliable.Your person at the front end of the market on a PCP or lease deal and buying new is not the same person who might otherwise drive a £500 car, and its the person whos driving the £500 car who will be scrapping it NOT the person in the shiny new one at the other end.
Lowtimer said:
There is no reason at all why you should scrap a 13 year old 5 series because you believe it is worth less than the cost of a clutch replacement. Doing so is penny-wise and pound foolish.
Quite possibly. However a 13 year old 5 series wouldnt be scrapped over a clutch because its got a decent monetary value - maybe £1500+. However a 1997 5 series with £500 that needs a clutch, has bodywork thats start to let go, and maybe some other bills upcoming, well then you could argue that its better to draw a line and move on to something else.Lowtimer said:
The fact that you cannot re-sell the car for the sum that you put into maintaining it is meaningless and unimportant. You never get back the money you put into finance charges, or fuel, or insurance, so why treat that differently from the money you put into maintenance?
Again, different sets of people and those who are driving something at £500 might find it hard to justify sticking a turbo on it or a floating flywheel, knowing they've MOT in 3 months to sort out and maybe four tyres. In the grand scheme of things, its clearly better to drive on at what you have, but thats not how a lot of people think.
Of interest, up until last june i was driving a £300 Fiat Marea JTD doing my 25,000 mile a year commute. I would be driving it yet only the floor pan was that badly rotted my mechanic said it was going to cost a fortune to fix AND it needed a timing belt done AND it needed MOT. I replaced it with a 2012 Golf TDI which i fully intend to drive on for as long as possible - aiming for 10+ years but if i get that far, i'll just drive on.
Lowtimer said:
If a car goes from £50K to worthless in 15 years then the punter is paying for it one way or another. Mainly that's through finance charges. Keep the thing going for an extra five years by putting in £150 a month into maintenance and ongoing refurb rather than monthy finance charges and you end up paying a lot less
Again, you're making the mistake of thinking the person who buys it at £50K is the man who is scrapping it at 15 years. Not so. It'll have had someone from new -> 3 years, two or three owners in between, then somebody will have it at 15 years old whos running it on a shoe string.CYMR0 said:
jamieduff1981 said:
A £1000 repair bill only becomes an uneconomic repair if you can buy a fully functioning car for £999; otherwise, it's just an expensive repair bill.
Agreed. But that could be an argument for repair and sell on, not necessarily to keep the car because you could be expecting another £1,000 repair bill next month.(I'm being mildly facetious but at some point it's not the current repair you're worried about so much as the one after that).
That TENDS to be what i was seeing.
Lowtimer said:
Keep the thing going for an extra five years by putting in £150 a month into maintenance and ongoing refurb rather than monthy finance charges and you end up paying a lot less
My current white good car only costs £30 a month more than that.Add in the free servicing and warranty, plus lower fuel bills, there's almost nothing in it..
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