A quick poll....
Poll: A quick poll....
Total Members Polled: 51
Discussion
How much would you pay full carbon open mould frame and forks with 50mm carbon clinchers all sourced from one of the reputable sources in the Far East? The frame is a Pedalforce CG1 already used by other brands and has a good reputation, the bike is completed with 11sp 105 and ITM/Deda finishing kit. Weight would be close to 17 lbs with a warranty available on frameset.
Hmmmm, laregely as I suspected, the intention is to be as clear and open about the sources as possible, not to imply that others are not, but I think there is still a case that when A.N.Other Cycles are found to be using an open mould frame, they will claim it is somehow different (material, lay) to that being offered for sale under the OEMs (Deng Fu etc) name. Part of the idea is that all the information about the framsest is out there online for all to see the sources and not hide it away. This hopefully garners trust.
So here is the idea, as Far Eastern sourced components become more popular and trust in them grows, the idea of pulling them all together in to one bike and selling them is quite appealing and I cant see anyone doing this yet who is not trying to make out the product is something it is not. Loads of UK riders have bought Deng Fu frames and loads of us are running 2011/FarSports/etc wheels. Someone buys the components together, puts on a groupset and finishing kit and its a bike. This "someone" is the proprieter of the brand and deals with any warranty issues back through to the source. £1250 still seems like a bargain to me, I mean "someone"...
Incidentlaly, I have seen the CG1 frameset for sale for over £1600 albeit with a swanky paint finish.
So here is the idea, as Far Eastern sourced components become more popular and trust in them grows, the idea of pulling them all together in to one bike and selling them is quite appealing and I cant see anyone doing this yet who is not trying to make out the product is something it is not. Loads of UK riders have bought Deng Fu frames and loads of us are running 2011/FarSports/etc wheels. Someone buys the components together, puts on a groupset and finishing kit and its a bike. This "someone" is the proprieter of the brand and deals with any warranty issues back through to the source. £1250 still seems like a bargain to me, I mean "someone"...
Incidentlaly, I have seen the CG1 frameset for sale for over £1600 albeit with a swanky paint finish.
Gizmoish said:
Agreed. When PX are doing full 11sp Ultegra at £1100...
with crap £100 wheels though. Wheels make a huge difference IMO.
I'd say you actually need to spend at least £1500
Rough maths
£400 - Frame
£350 - wheels (Yes, they are £280 on ebay, but you will have clearing fees and VAT)
£550 - Groupset (I would go for SRAM Force 22, but thats just me)
£150 - Misc (Saddle, bars, spacers and tape. Obviously you could spend a lo more in this area)
£70 - Tyres and Tubes
£1520 and a lot of faff and waiting, However, I see peoples point. You do get a lot of bike for the money
Trouble is, lots of us realise that most stuff is batch made in the Far East and then a label slapped on here and marketed on the brands "heritage" "pedigree" or modern racing prowess.
I'm not knocking it as the kit you can get for a grand at the moment is most impressive. I would be the first to buy what the OP is suggesting
However lots of riders, especially some of the medium/big spenders don't want a "den-fung" frame and want to believe that brands like De Rosa consist of a small team of experienced Italians crafting away at one off frames. Where as Ribble knock out the same frame for a grand less... (NO NAMES>>>>>)
My point being (not being made well) is lots of cyclists are quite aspirational and want to buy into a specific lifestyle and brand, choosing to believe all the myths the bikes give.
For the rest of us who don't give a f
k there are Ribble and PlanetX who have a very established model and market with very tight margins......
Therefore it would be difficult for the OPs model to fit in
Then again theres a fair few offering what the OP suggests and there has been a history of small time players such as shops offering exactly what the OP sets out.
My worry would be the margin on selling/marketing and building bikes is so slim, the final nail in the coffin would be if you had a bad batch of parts , such as frames, you would then have to warrant everything you sold with the defect, which could could cost you dearly
I'm not knocking it as the kit you can get for a grand at the moment is most impressive. I would be the first to buy what the OP is suggesting
However lots of riders, especially some of the medium/big spenders don't want a "den-fung" frame and want to believe that brands like De Rosa consist of a small team of experienced Italians crafting away at one off frames. Where as Ribble knock out the same frame for a grand less... (NO NAMES>>>>>)
My point being (not being made well) is lots of cyclists are quite aspirational and want to buy into a specific lifestyle and brand, choosing to believe all the myths the bikes give.
For the rest of us who don't give a f
k there are Ribble and PlanetX who have a very established model and market with very tight margins......Therefore it would be difficult for the OPs model to fit in
Then again theres a fair few offering what the OP suggests and there has been a history of small time players such as shops offering exactly what the OP sets out.
My worry would be the margin on selling/marketing and building bikes is so slim, the final nail in the coffin would be if you had a bad batch of parts , such as frames, you would then have to warrant everything you sold with the defect, which could could cost you dearly
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Tuesday 12th August 17:57
TwistingMyMelon said:
I would be the first to buy what the OP is suggesting
cheques payable to.... Yes, I'm not sure who the market is, but I thought that if people were stumping up over double the manufacturers retail price for the frame to buy a Ritte then there was a market there somewhere much like Wheelsmith do...
So at least others think there is a market for the "no frills" bang per buck carbon models, for those who know if you will, likewise I thought about the lifestyle/brand thing, yeah much like Ritte, a pseudo heritage name and cool paint job. I worked in an outdoorsy shop for a few years and know we sold a lot of kit to people who would never use it in the manner intended but who wanted in on the lifestyle, £300 mountaineering jackets to walk to the pub etc.
Its coming up with a brand that people buy into thats hard. You either have to be vague and hide away the source to maintain the image you have created or be open and detail the sources. Annoyingly I cant see the two working alongside each other, that would be ideal scenario capturing both markets but the internet sleuths would be out in force and come up with their own conclusions.
Gizmoish said:
Disco You said:
Given the prices of planetx and ribble etc. you'll struggle to get anyone to pay over £1k, I'd say.
Agreed. When PX are doing full 11sp Ultegra at £1100...The real question is not "what would a person pay for this bike" but "if I am only selling this spec of bike, is there a sufficient market for me to survive".
That's a bit trickier to answer, because my guess is that that spec means you are ruling out first bike buyers altogether. And once you're into n+1 buyers, you have a lot of competition from other bikes.
bakerstreet said:
Gizmoish said:
Agreed. When PX are doing full 11sp Ultegra at £1100...
with crap £100 wheels though. Wheels make a huge difference IMO.
I'd say you actually need to spend at least £1500
Rough maths
£400 - Frame
£350 - wheels (Yes, they are £280 on ebay, but you will have clearing fees and VAT)
£550 - Groupset (I would go for SRAM Force 22, but thats just me)
£150 - Misc (Saddle, bars, spacers and tape. Obviously you could spend a lo more in this area)
£70 - Tyres and Tubes
£1520 and a lot of faff and waiting, However, I see peoples point. You do get a lot of bike for the money
But people buy on spec-sheet - hence why some makers do '105' models with non-series brakes, crankset etc. And Ultegra > 105, so a large portion of the market will go PX's way of Ultegra and cheap wheels rather than 105 and nice wheels.
Sorry if this is off-topic Pablo...
I have been casually browsing the sites mulling a new bike, the idea of getting a shed load of parts from China and putting it together for a saving had come up.
Would there be much of a saving just selling a kit bike or is it too much of a liability issue? In addition I already have wheels, saddle, pedals etc that I like so anything I bought would mean flogging on £200+ parts straight away- unless anyone know of a supplier where you can buy the bike without wheels?
I rather like the idea of a whole groupset rather than the cost-cutter versions most "manufacturers" seem to supply.
I have been casually browsing the sites mulling a new bike, the idea of getting a shed load of parts from China and putting it together for a saving had come up.
Would there be much of a saving just selling a kit bike or is it too much of a liability issue? In addition I already have wheels, saddle, pedals etc that I like so anything I bought would mean flogging on £200+ parts straight away- unless anyone know of a supplier where you can buy the bike without wheels?
I rather like the idea of a whole groupset rather than the cost-cutter versions most "manufacturers" seem to supply.
Someone was doing this, Taiwanese open mould frames and wheels, four or five years ago - but without an established brand I'm fairly sure they just faded away.
If I remember they had a TT bike that used a variation of the Planet-X Stealth mould; but the trouble is you need brand credibility and that costs money to build, which means you need fatter margins etc.
If I remember they had a TT bike that used a variation of the Planet-X Stealth mould; but the trouble is you need brand credibility and that costs money to build, which means you need fatter margins etc.
scubadude said:
Sorry if this is off-topic Pablo...
I have been casually browsing the sites mulling a new bike, the idea of getting a shed load of parts from China and putting it together for a saving had come up.
Would there be much of a saving just selling a kit bike or is it too much of a liability issue? In addition I already have wheels, saddle, pedals etc that I like so anything I bought would mean flogging on £200+ parts straight away- unless anyone know of a supplier where you can buy the bike without wheels?
I rather like the idea of a whole groupset rather than the cost-cutter versions most "manufacturers" seem to supply.
I like this idea, a bit like how Westfield and Caterham operate, you can buy the kit and build it yourself or buy the complete car. I also like the idea of a few variations on the kit, framset and groupset, frameset, groupset and wheels, then add in finishing kit though I dont want to offer too much options in terms of stem length etc. As you say, we all have good wheels from previous upgrades so dont want to drop £2k on a bike that has £100 wheels we will never use.I have been casually browsing the sites mulling a new bike, the idea of getting a shed load of parts from China and putting it together for a saving had come up.
Would there be much of a saving just selling a kit bike or is it too much of a liability issue? In addition I already have wheels, saddle, pedals etc that I like so anything I bought would mean flogging on £200+ parts straight away- unless anyone know of a supplier where you can buy the bike without wheels?
I rather like the idea of a whole groupset rather than the cost-cutter versions most "manufacturers" seem to supply.
The groupset thought came about because Ribble sent out an email offering the complete 105 groupset at £299, I know they buy in bulk and can get good offers from Madison etc but even buying parts from Ribble et al makes sense when they have offers like this, particularly when they are that cheap and I have no method of procuring parts from the "offical" distribution route.
I'm not really looking at making loads of money from this, I just want to build and sell some bikes, sponsor some racers etc because I like bikes!
pablo said:
I like this idea, a bit like how Westfield and Caterham operate, you can buy the kit and build it yourself or buy the complete car.
Exactly- I'll take a Superlight with Tillet saddle please :-)pablo said:
I also like the idea of a few variations on the kit, framset and groupset, frameset, groupset and wheels, then add in finishing kit though I dont want to offer too much options in terms of stem length etc. As you say, we all have good wheels from previous upgrades so dont want to drop £2k on a bike that has £100 wheels we will never use.
If you follow the Caterham model then "contact points" will all be optional cost extras, the bike package is just frame and group, pick your own wheels, saddle, bars etc.pablo said:
I'm not really looking at making loads of money from this, I just want to build and sell some bikes, sponsor some racers etc because I like bikes!
I like the idea, I'm well aware most of the brands are blueprint Taiwanese kit with stickers on. The thought of specifying my own bike is appealing- start with a good frame and group with existing bits then can upgrade the wheels, handlebars and so on as time goes by. Could even sticker up the frame with my own brand or leave it stealthy.Gizmoish said:
Not arguing with that you say here, at all.
But people buy on spec-sheet - hence why some makers do '105' models with non-series brakes, crankset etc. And Ultegra > 105, so a large portion of the market will go PX's way of Ultegra and cheap wheels rather than 105 and nice wheels.
The problem is that you can still get fairly poor wheels on bikes that cost up to £3k and beyond.But people buy on spec-sheet - hence why some makers do '105' models with non-series brakes, crankset etc. And Ultegra > 105, so a large portion of the market will go PX's way of Ultegra and cheap wheels rather than 105 and nice wheels.
Also, I remember speaking to a guy at PX who said they preferred to use the FSA cranks as they felt they were better quality than the equivalent 105.
I think Pablo's idea is good, but to make it good value, you'd have to use 105 and I feel that the spec of the rest would be better matched with Ultegra and you would have to go for 11 speed and that isn't that cheap at £500+
Looking at my basic maths, I don't think it would be easy to actually make much money out of it
People have been buying frames and speccing them as they wish for years and most good bike shops will aid you in changing some basic things on a bike.
You mention that you wouldnt want to get into stem lengths etc. But that is the main area that Bike Retailing is now going. Bike Fit is the main way of pulling Customers in store and that is what Riders are looking for from a good shop.
I cant really see that there is anymore room in the market for another made up brand selling cheap stuff from the Far East, especially if its sold online. Also you might be vastly under estimating the fixed over heads of operating such a business and teh margins required to survive.
You mention that you wouldnt want to get into stem lengths etc. But that is the main area that Bike Retailing is now going. Bike Fit is the main way of pulling Customers in store and that is what Riders are looking for from a good shop.
I cant really see that there is anymore room in the market for another made up brand selling cheap stuff from the Far East, especially if its sold online. Also you might be vastly under estimating the fixed over heads of operating such a business and teh margins required to survive.
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