RE: Ban the backdating! Tell Me I'm Wrong
RE: Ban the backdating! Tell Me I'm Wrong
Wednesday 3rd September 2014

Ban the backdating! Tell Me I'm Wrong

Should we be chopping up nice old Porsches to make them look like (possibly nicer) older Porsches?



About a year ago I was on a bit of a 911 odyssey around California chatting with the likes of Magnus Walker, Singer and numerous owners of hot-rodded Porsches. And while the cars were in isolation lovely things the abiding memory was chatting with David Bouzaglou from long-time Porsche resto shop TRE Motorsports and seeing the slightly wistful look in his eyes as he recalled how three decades ago he was modernising then unfashionable 70s 911s into replicas of widebody 80s Turbos and flatnoses. And now he's doing the exact opposite.

Hot-rodded Porsches can still be tasteful
Hot-rodded Porsches can still be tasteful
Fashions change and if the customer wants it the customer gets. But I can't help shed a tear for the SCs, G-series 3.2 Carreras and, now, 964s that have been butchered to resemble something they're not.

The arguments for are easy enough to understand of course and pretty much impossible to dispute, especially when you've got one of Singer'screations before you. I have to confess, given a six-figure budget and an old 964 I'd be on the phone to Rob, Maz and the guys and telling them to go mad with the angle grinder and carbon fibre additions.

Preservation order
And that huge interchangeability of parts - original and aftermarket - across the generations is what makes the 911 such a unique template for the imagination of all fans, be they dreadlocked fashion entrepreneurs from downtown LA or clean cut investors eyeing up the next collectable derivative.

Customising, updating, backdating - they're all part of the Porsche story too. When I put it to Harris he just said it's about making old cars drive better and more usable. And it's hard to argue.

Indeed, who wouldn't want a car like this?
Indeed, who wouldn't want a car like this?
Singer's appetite for 964 project cars isn't ever likely to put a serious dent in supply of original examples but that doesn't mean there won't be others inspired to do so in larger quantities that might. And for someone for whom a standard manual 964 Carrera coupe would do nicely but is rapidly disappearing from anything approaching easy reach that gets me worried. Dip into the PH classifieds and you'll still see 964s for less than £20K. But by the time you strip out the cabrios, Targas and Tiptronics you can add another £10K to that and a rate of inflation matched only by Home Counties semis in a desirable school catchment area.

We all crave the S/Ts, the Rs, the RSes and their lookalikes. But what happens when we turn around and find there are suddenly no nice, original SCs, 3.2 Carreras or 964s around?

Original is best?
It's not just Porsches of course. How many more 'Lotus' Cortinas are there now than there once were, likewise Escort Mexicos. And how long before all the K-Series Elises go pop and transplanted Honda or Duratecs make up the majority? Is there such a thing as an original RX-7 or R32 Skyline? An LS-engined TVR sounds like a giggle but shouldn't someone be devoting themselves to keeping one alive with a Speed Six engine still in place?

The point at which Dan's argument looks shaky
The point at which Dan's argument looks shaky
Should I be bothered? Someone's got to be. But I've got a solution that'd keep everyone happy, at least in Porsche's case. And it's a lesson they could learn from the American muscle car scene. Rare for Stuttgart to miss a trick when it comes to developing new income streams but as an alternative to chasing people for trademark infringement there's a more positive solution. One that could bring in a few more euros.

Indeed, it was experience of an LS-engined TVR that got me browsing GM's Chevy crate enginescatalogue. And it's huge. Whether you want a modern supercharged LS9 or a retro carbfed 350 small block GM will sell you it off the shelf, no questions asked. There's even a Camaro body in white you can buy - part #19243374 if you're interested. Ford, meanwhile, has also introduced 60s era Mustang bodyshells along similar lines. Want to build your own vision of your ultimate resto-mod Mustang? Fill your boots, and no need to carve up an old one to do so. See also Japan, where you can buy a GT86 with unpaintedbumpers and steelies, ready to hand over to the tuner of your choosing.

Given a G-series shell (and cash) and this'd do
Given a G-series shell (and cash) and this'd do
Cut some slack
It would require a fundamental change of mentality at Porsche of course. The idea that any Tom, Dick or Harry could order a bunch of factory bits and build an 'RS' is enough to have the lawyers trembling in their double-breasted suits. Thing is, folk are doing it anyway. At the detriment of the pool of original cars for those who want to preserve them the way they were. And I think the Porsche brand and 911 legacy is strong enough to accommodate support for the custom scene too.

Make the bits expensive enough that building a Singer-like car would require Singer-like expertise and money. G-series or 964 bodies in white, G50 gearboxes, Mezger-based engines in a variety of capacities and tunings with the whole vast range of aftermarket Porsche tuning parts and expertise to hang it all together. Just imagine the possibilities! Sure, there are probably a heap of legislative and other regulations I've not fully thought through or considered but I'm already lost in a mental spending spree in an online Porsche catalogue the equivalent of GM's or Ford's.

That way when funds allow I can have my (imagined) original SC or 964 Carrera 2 AND my personal vision of a resto-mod 911 while keeping a clean conscience and letting the collectors who want to spend the millions on the originals as investments do just that. After all, those who obsess over matching numbers and a factory history will always pay a premium for the dwindling supply of 'real' cars. Let them. Those of us who want an ultimate 911 for driving and enjoying can have that too, Porsche gets a cut of the action and it's down to the people like Singer, Autofarm and the rest to actually build them.

Literally, everyone's a winner.

 

Author
Discussion

monthefish

Original Poster:

20,467 posts

261 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
rolleyes

You're wrong, if on the basis of your own admission, if nothing else.

Dan Trent said:
I have to confess, given a six-figure budget and an old 964 I'd be on the phone to Rob, Maz and the guys and telling them to go mad with the angle grinder and carbon fibre additions.

FTW

547 posts

206 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
I have to disagree, it keeps the value of the originals nice and high whilst providing much eye candy. Win Win

Goofnik

216 posts

170 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
I think Porsche offering factory bits and bodies-in-white is a matter of "when, not if". I think they're mostly constrained by factory space at the moment (they always are), but it's becoming increasingly clear that they want to turn Porsche Classic into a very successful business unit of its own.

JohnT993

102 posts

183 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
good point... and if it can happen in america, home of the lawsuit, then why not in Europe!
Suspect its an attitude thing.

I'd love to build me one of these: https://www.flickr.com/photos/45676495@N05/6069695...

...just like the lucky (and utterly nice) gent who had one at a PH goodwood track day last year

bruciebonuz

295 posts

245 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
I think less back dating is going on than a few years ago perhaps. Mainly because of a growing appreciation of the 80s cars and the 964 (try finding a good 964 C2 coupe for less than £30k). And the trend for RS replicas is being overtaken by a desire for the ST and other non-ducktail exotica.

Any back date done well is ok by me and if it means another old Porsche is saved then that's great. The great thing is that this "scene" (which I am relatively new to) is incredibly varied and well supported in the UK now with a host of really good places specialising in the older cars across the country. Parts availability is very good indeed.

There is also a very good and lively forum (DDK-Online). Lots of fun to be had with old Porsches whichever way you like 'em.

delays

792 posts

245 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
I see two arguments to this.

One is giving life to shonky old 911s that would have likely been run into the ground otherwise.

And the other is that it makes a nice standard 911 SC, 3.2 Carrera or 964 look like a lovely thing. There's plenty RS reps that look a little too well presented and miss the point I think.

EggsBenedict

1,795 posts

204 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
They're just lumps of metal and glass. They made loads and loads of 911's. It's not a massive rarity in most cases (yeh, i know about the RSs etc.), and has someone said before, there'll come a point where those with original cars will have the last laugh in terms of value, but those with the modded cars will argue they're having the most fun.


365daytonafan

283 posts

215 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
I thought the shortage of manual 964 coupes was more to do with the nicest ones being exported to RHD markets in the Far East and Australia while the £ has been quite weak over the last few years?

virgilio

444 posts

175 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
You're right: chopping up old cars to make (admittedly very cool) replicas is blasphemous.
I think some old cars should be protected, just like art or buildings.

That said, I would see nothing wrong if "replicas" (or whatever you would call a Singer/Eagle you name it) would be built ex-novo, without destroying a donor car.

DonkeyApple

70,092 posts

199 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
I don't see it as an issue.

For every person like me who wants a classic with modern running gear there is a purist who demands total originality.

And we aren't buggering about with the rare models but taking the low end coat hanger salesmen versions and having them made into something better.

Restomods use the cheapest and most abundant of a model, the one that the least number of people desire to own. If demand reached the point that supply shrunk dramatically then core prices would rise and the restomodding would stop.

Good restomods add value to a marque.

Irish

3,991 posts

269 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
My project - back to stock all the way. Matching numbers etc., lobster interior, first registered the day after I was born....















gary71

2,037 posts

209 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
It's only a car smile If you want to modify, forward or back date, then it's up to you.

There are many early impact bumper cars that had been forward dated to 964 and are now lovingly being put back to OE spec rather than the further step to an early car.

I'd much rather see a 911 of any type being driven hard and used than worrying to much about what someone else thinks of it's originality.

Backdates, forward dates, kits, and even the odd original car actually being used. Welcome to DDK smile


P4ROT

1,219 posts

223 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
Depends on the history of said car. Singers are acceptable to me because:

1. They're very tasteful.
2. They're based on 964s which are much less rare anyway.

boxsey

3,579 posts

240 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
365daytonafan said:
I thought the shortage of manual 964 coupes was more to do with the nicest ones being exported to RHD markets in the Far East and Australia while the £ has been quite weak over the last few years?
There are still lots about in the UK. It's just that there has been a new appreciation for them and owners are now hanging on to them. Therefore they don't come up for sale as frequently now.

900T-R

20,406 posts

287 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
The author is conveniently forgetting that there's no one at any road authority anywhere in the developed world that will certify his new-old out-of-the catalogue build for road use. You will need enough left of an old car including its VIN and original registration for that to persuade said authorities into believing what's in front of them is one and the same car as the ne they granted permission to use Her Majesty's roads thirty-odd years ago.


That said, I can sympathise with the author's feeling about the rebuild/reimagine scene in that I'm buying a gutted Chimaera bodyshell with crash damage and the all-important registration paperwork for the forthcoming Speed Eight speedster build, rather than butchering a fair-condition example that could be reasonably returned its original state even if current economics would speak against doing so.

I'm doing my bit for re-use and upcycling, me bowtiehehe

renaultgeek

473 posts

178 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
monthefish said:
rolleyes

You're wrong, if on the basis of your own admission, if nothing else.

Dan Trent said:
I have to confess, given a six-figure budget and an old 964 I'd be on the phone to Rob, Maz and the guys and telling them to go mad with the angle grinder and carbon fibre additions.
if I had the money for a singer, I'd probably buy several 911s instead. I'd have a 964 for when I wanted it and a modern 911 for when I wanted modern.

keiran

39 posts

224 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
I like the idea of having two of everything. One original/restored example, and one modified/modernised version.

Win win situation.

Obviously this method could be costly

Atmospheric

5,346 posts

238 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
You mentioned K series going pop. Queue the BL boys on that one.

Secondly, that Chevy website is truly great. Look at those V8s!!!

mrclav

1,645 posts

253 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
virgilio said:
chopping up old cars to make (admittedly very cool) replicas is blasphemous.
I think some old cars should be protected, just like art or buildings.
Difference is, there were many more Porsches built as opposed to one-off art paintings/sculptures of the masters or a classically-designed building; I don't think they're comparable at all.

It's not like we're talking about some obscure 60s Ferrari either.

tim milne

348 posts

263 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
quotequote all
What's not to like?

If you watch Chris Harris's interview with the people at Singer and see the level of detailed engineering that goes into it, it's mind-boggling. And, as they point out, there are no old parts in their cars.

Maybe also, part of the draw is that new cars are getting bigger and dominated by technology that offers features that inevitably make the cars more complex — e.g. three settings for the steering; exhaust fakery — but don't add to the intimate human experience.

Apple has made fortunes by understanding that people don't want unnecessary complexity.

An old, small car with modern reliability, but still an analogue experience is very appealing in this day and age.