Enforcing a CCJ
Discussion
In short, I took a bad tradesman to small claims and won. Unfortunately as of spring this year he had debts topping £90k owing all over the place. He did have 4 rental properties though, one of which I found out was in process of being sold. I tried to act quickly to attach a charging order to it, but wasn't quick enough. What to do now? Get him to attend and prove his financial situ again, charge another property or freeze his bank (assuming he still has the cash from sale, if any). Or should I give up altogether...? I really don't want to do that, and I'm really just affecting the order in which he pays back his debts, not the overall amount. I don't feel great about it, but ultimately it's a CCJ.
singlecoil said:
If you think there is a decent chance of getting the money, then follow it up by whatever means are available but only you can decide whether it's worth the candle or not.
This is right, but the simplest thing to do (assuming the judgment debt is over £750) is to send him a statutory demand. This is the first (non-binding i.e. you do not have to pursue it) step in bankrupcy. That will be piss or get off the pot moment for him. He may be trying to avoid bankruptcy with debts like that. Just because he has assets such as the houses does ot mean he has enough after morgages to pay off all his creditors. A stat demand costs nothing if you do it yourself (beware thouh even small mistakes can mean that the demand can be challenged -usually ineffectively but you do not want the argument beleive me-, so you need to get it right).If he pays, job done, if not then you have to decide whether to pursue him by issuing a bankruptcy petition, which starts to cost serious money, or go for an examination or some such, which will tell him that he can continue to duck and dive.
When I was in practice I often use to have to tell clients that getting judgment is the easy bit, getting paid is the tough one.
If you can wait (maybe years) to get your money and if you know about the other properties, try and get a charge registered on one of them. Eventually when he comes to dispose of it you will get your money. Its quite a cheap process, once done you can just sit back and wait.
I did this against a bad debt and it was a delicious moment when the miscreant had to come cap in hand to get the charge lifted so he could sell his house. He was furious about it, and I just laughed in his face. He didn't like it when the boot was on the other foot, not one bit
I did this against a bad debt and it was a delicious moment when the miscreant had to come cap in hand to get the charge lifted so he could sell his house. He was furious about it, and I just laughed in his face. He didn't like it when the boot was on the other foot, not one bit
Don't stress. As long as the debt is over £600, pay £60 and job jobbed.
http://thesheriffsoffice.com/articles/high_court_e...
http://thesheriffsoffice.com/articles/high_court_e...
jensenhealey2 said:
singlecoil said:
If you think there is a decent chance of getting the money, then follow it up by whatever means are available but only you can decide whether it's worth the candle or not.
This is right, but the simplest thing to do (assuming the judgment debt is over £750) is to send him a statutory demand. This is the first (non-binding i.e. you do not have to pursue it) step in bankrupcy. That will be piss or get off the pot moment for him. He may be trying to avoid bankruptcy with debts like that. Just because he has assets such as the houses does ot mean he has enough after morgages to pay off all his creditors. A stat demand costs nothing if you do it yourself (beware thouh even small mistakes can mean that the demand can be challenged -usually ineffectively but you do not want the argument beleive me-, so you need to get it right).If he pays, job done, if not then you have to decide whether to pursue him by issuing a bankruptcy petition, which starts to cost serious money, or go for an examination or some such, which will tell him that he can continue to duck and dive.
When I was in practice I often use to have to tell clients that getting judgment is the easy bit, getting paid is the tough one.
Also, would i get the money back for the 'failed' charging order, or for any that were not needed if a different one netted me the debt money back?
I don't understand what sending a bailiff will do... I tended to think he might not have the necessary value of stuff lying around the place. Could be wrong I suppose. The property route seemed to be the best option to me, mainly because they are large assets he appeared to be starting to try and liquidate...
Blown2CV said:
Yes he is signed up to a debt charity thing - might be called stepchange or something? So he's clearly trying to avoid bankruptcy, now that you mention it. Sounds like a risky route. If he is indeed scrabbling to avoid that, I tend to think he will try and sell his other properties... so prospective charging order(s) on those might work. I wonder if you can apply more than one charging order for the same debt?
Also, would i get the money back for the 'failed' charging order, or for any that were not needed if a different one netted me the debt money back?
I don't understand what sending a bailiff will do... I tended to think he might not have the necessary value of stuff lying around the place. Could be wrong I suppose. The property route seemed to be the best option to me, mainly because they are large assets he appeared to be starting to try and liquidate...
Some on these forums believe hceo's are magicians. They are not. If I owed someone money and didn't want to pay them I would know my way around the system enough to beat them. There powers are actually very limited in residential property. If you don't answer the door ever then they can't do a thing. Some will say seize your car - however they have to establish ownership first. They can't just take it. A receipt for a cash payment to a friend with "the. V5s not back yet" will scupper them entirely. Where they succeed are with companies (who don't know how to play the system) or with naive individuals. Also, would i get the money back for the 'failed' charging order, or for any that were not needed if a different one netted me the debt money back?
I don't understand what sending a bailiff will do... I tended to think he might not have the necessary value of stuff lying around the place. Could be wrong I suppose. The property route seemed to be the best option to me, mainly because they are large assets he appeared to be starting to try and liquidate...
http://www.stepchange.org/
If you wnt to look at a charging orer you need to do some research into the properties at the Land Registry https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry
It only works if there is free equity in the property you charge. You cannot tell this from the LR records but you can see if there is a charge at all or if there are several charges (always bad news because several charges means the debor is addicted to borrowing and reduces the chances of any free equity existing}.
The way it works is that you get an initial charging order on a paper application without notice and then a court date to make it final a which you have to invite any other creditors to turn up to have their say. Mostly they don't.
My suggestion of a statutory demand brings matters to a head. He does not know whether you will proceed with a bankruptcy petition annd so has to do something about it or risk bankruptcy. A charging order is as far as he is concerned just more borrowing and te puttting off of his need to pay this debt. It does secure you if he later goes bankrupt, but it does not get you the money up front. For that you have to go to more expense and apply for an order for sale. I have done that in the past and got paid even when we were unlikely to get an order for sale, because of children living in the charged property.
Using a bailiff has never been an option I favoured, because early in my career, I used them quite freqently and always got back "insufficient goods to distrain" and hefty bill. Others on here in other threads have clearly had more luck. If this guy is a big debtor then chances are he does not own much and everything worth selling is financed, so not available for seizing.
As he is advised a likely outcome of a stat emand is a request to pay by installments. You can then ask for security, which should flush out if there is anything worth taking security over. Debtors often ask for time to pay then stop after a couple of months.
No easy fixes in getting your money, I am afraid.
If you wnt to look at a charging orer you need to do some research into the properties at the Land Registry https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry
It only works if there is free equity in the property you charge. You cannot tell this from the LR records but you can see if there is a charge at all or if there are several charges (always bad news because several charges means the debor is addicted to borrowing and reduces the chances of any free equity existing}.
The way it works is that you get an initial charging order on a paper application without notice and then a court date to make it final a which you have to invite any other creditors to turn up to have their say. Mostly they don't.
My suggestion of a statutory demand brings matters to a head. He does not know whether you will proceed with a bankruptcy petition annd so has to do something about it or risk bankruptcy. A charging order is as far as he is concerned just more borrowing and te puttting off of his need to pay this debt. It does secure you if he later goes bankrupt, but it does not get you the money up front. For that you have to go to more expense and apply for an order for sale. I have done that in the past and got paid even when we were unlikely to get an order for sale, because of children living in the charged property.
Using a bailiff has never been an option I favoured, because early in my career, I used them quite freqently and always got back "insufficient goods to distrain" and hefty bill. Others on here in other threads have clearly had more luck. If this guy is a big debtor then chances are he does not own much and everything worth selling is financed, so not available for seizing.
As he is advised a likely outcome of a stat emand is a request to pay by installments. You can then ask for security, which should flush out if there is anything worth taking security over. Debtors often ask for time to pay then stop after a couple of months.
No easy fixes in getting your money, I am afraid.
the properties he does not live in are rental properties. I guess if you can see when the title originally changed to him, you can tell how long he's been paying off a mortgage on it (or rather, that his tenants have been doing it for him). A reasonable period of doing that means he isn't guaranteed to have equity, but you'd expect that was the case. He might not have been able or willing to sell the properties in recent years because of the depressed market, but values are starting to pick up now so possibly that's why he's sold the first one. I'd be surprised if he wanted to keep the others. That was the rationale behind the charging order originally anyway. I'm not wedded to it as an idea, I will have a look at the statutory demand too. thanks
photosnob said:
Some on these forums believe hceo's are magicians. They are not. If I owed someone money and didn't want to pay them I would know my way around the system enough to beat them. There powers are actually very limited in residential property. If you don't answer the door ever then they can't do a thing. Some will say seize your car - however they have to establish ownership first. They can't just take it. A receipt for a cash payment to a friend with "the. V5s not back yet" will scupper them entirely. Where they succeed are with companies (who don't know how to play the system) or with naive individuals.
That won't work. You'll have to show proof of payment, and they'll recheck the ownership status a few weeks later. They'll also seize it on paper, so you can't sell it after they visit.paulrussell said:
That won't work. You'll have to show proof of payment, and they'll recheck the ownership status a few weeks later. They'll also seize it on paper, so you can't sell it after they visit.
Not going to bother correcting you if you can't be bothered to check either the law or guidance on this stuff Edited by photosnob on Saturday 6th September 22:12
photosnob said:
paulrussell said:
That won't work. You'll have to show proof of payment, and they'll recheck the ownership status a few weeks later. They'll also seize it on paper, so you can't sell it after they visit.
Not going to bother correcting you if you can't be bothered to check either the law or guidance on this stuff http://www.landlordtoday.co.uk/news_features/Illeg...
Furthermore, one that is deliberately created to avoid seizure of an asset when no consideration for the goods (i.e. money changing hands) has in fact been made is not going to fool an experienced HCEO. IIRC an example of this was featured on 'The Sheriffs are Coming'.
Red Devil said:
Really? A receipt will not necessarily provide protection if the underlying circumstances are not kosher.
http://www.landlordtoday.co.uk/news_features/Illeg...
Furthermore, one that is deliberately created to avoid seizure of an asset when no consideration for the goods (i.e. money changing hands) has in fact been made is not going to fool an experienced HCEO. IIRC an example of this was featured on 'The Sheriffs are Coming'.
If someone claims something is not their property and that it is owned by someone else then it will not be taken.http://www.landlordtoday.co.uk/news_features/Illeg...
Furthermore, one that is deliberately created to avoid seizure of an asset when no consideration for the goods (i.e. money changing hands) has in fact been made is not going to fool an experienced HCEO. IIRC an example of this was featured on 'The Sheriffs are Coming'.
People make the mistake of saying too much. Have a look at how the costs add up when things turn legal. The loser pays it all. That's why they won't take unless they are sure. People say too much and dig a hole. Criminals do it with the police as well. In most circumstances "it's not mine do one" is more than enough. Cars are a bit different. "I need you to provide proof off that" should be answered with "f
k off". Let's see if they have the balls to take and then answer questions later.Correct. Which is why any HCEO worth his/her salt will ask to see other documentation. Proof of purchase, insurance document, transfer of funds, etc. According to photosnob all you have to do is claim that an asset isn't yours and tell the HCEO to Foxtrot Oscar. If that was so they would never succeed in recovering anything from an individual debtor.
Removal is seldom the first step anyway. The HCEO will list the asset(s) for a walking possession. In the case of vehicles the HCEO should check with the DVLA (see the LGO complaint re Blaby Council). If the debtor is shown as the RK then the onus is on him/her to produce evidence of third party ownership. An insurance document in the debtor's name is going to take some explaining. In genuine cases (e.g. a leased vehicle) providing the relevant supporting documentation shouldn't be difficult to do.
HCEOs are not stupid. They have heard all the excuses and have ways of catching out the devious.
Removal is seldom the first step anyway. The HCEO will list the asset(s) for a walking possession. In the case of vehicles the HCEO should check with the DVLA (see the LGO complaint re Blaby Council). If the debtor is shown as the RK then the onus is on him/her to produce evidence of third party ownership. An insurance document in the debtor's name is going to take some explaining. In genuine cases (e.g. a leased vehicle) providing the relevant supporting documentation shouldn't be difficult to do.
HCEOs are not stupid. They have heard all the excuses and have ways of catching out the devious.
Red Devil said:
Correct. Which is why any HCEO worth his/her salt will ask to see other documentation. Proof of purchase, insurance document, transfer of funds, etc. According to photosnob all you have to do is claim that an asset isn't yours and tell the HCEO to Foxtrot Oscar. If that was so they would never succeed in recovering anything from an individual debtor.
Removal is seldom the first step anyway. The HCEO will list the asset(s) for a walking possession. In the case of vehicles the HCEO should check with the DVLA (see the LGO complaint re Blaby Council). If the debtor is shown as the RK then the onus is on him/her to produce evidence of third party ownership. An insurance document in the debtor's name is going to take some explaining. In genuine cases (e.g. a leased vehicle) providing the relevant supporting documentation shouldn't be difficult to do.
HCEOs are not stupid. They have heard all the excuses and have ways of catching out the devious.
And what does the hceo do when the debtor simply ignored him/her? Removal is seldom the first step anyway. The HCEO will list the asset(s) for a walking possession. In the case of vehicles the HCEO should check with the DVLA (see the LGO complaint re Blaby Council). If the debtor is shown as the RK then the onus is on him/her to produce evidence of third party ownership. An insurance document in the debtor's name is going to take some explaining. In genuine cases (e.g. a leased vehicle) providing the relevant supporting documentation shouldn't be difficult to do.
HCEOs are not stupid. They have heard all the excuses and have ways of catching out the devious.
I'm not trying to give people a how to guide on how to get out of paying for debts. However I have a reasonable amount of experience advising people of their rights. If they take it and there is a court case to decide whoever loses pays all the costs. The costs and fees are usually pretty scary. So they won't take unless they are sure.
Of course they don't show these things on TV. In the same way they don't show people being nfa'd on roadwars whilst being as guilty as sin. You have to realise that you are only seeing one end of the spectrum on a programme.
I've said it before - I'd be able to get rid of hceo'a very easily. There powers are incredibly limited. It really is as simple as not letting them in, locking the doors and windows and saying the car isn't yours and if they take it the owner will peruse them for damages. Don't enter a dialogue, and eventually they will disappear to return the account. Simples.
in the words of the solicitor i spoke to, lots of people seem to think bailiffs, even the high courts ones are somehow magicians. They'd need to find 3x the value of stuff as i am owed in order to ensure i could be paid back. All his money is tied up in property, and property he didn't want to, or couldn't sell due to the market crash, which we're now out of. He doesn't have lots of expensive stuff lying around. I don't even think I have that value of stuff in the house that could be seized if it was me.
Blown2CV said:
in the words of the solicitor i spoke to, lots of people seem to think bailiffs, even the high courts ones are somehow magicians. They'd need to find 3x the value of stuff as i am owed in order to ensure i could be paid back. All his money is tied up in property, and property he didn't want to, or couldn't sell due to the market crash, which we're now out of. He doesn't have lots of expensive stuff lying around. I don't even think I have that value of stuff in the house that could be seized if it was me.
what about this?http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/debt_w/debt_ac...
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