Classic car dealers and legal responsibilities
Discussion
I've just bought my first classic and so far, love it - like every one, it has its little foibles but it seems to be well sorted.
But I was thinking today, what if you bought a classic car from a dealer and it had or quickly developed faults - leaking oil, say, or electrical gremlins... With a modern car you'd presumably be able to compel the dealer to fix them (Sale of Goods act etc), but what about a classic? Would dealers have a get out on the basis that it's an old car and these things happen?
But I was thinking today, what if you bought a classic car from a dealer and it had or quickly developed faults - leaking oil, say, or electrical gremlins... With a modern car you'd presumably be able to compel the dealer to fix them (Sale of Goods act etc), but what about a classic? Would dealers have a get out on the basis that it's an old car and these things happen?
If the car ia advertised and sold by a dealer then there are responsibilities relating to merchantable qualities and the dealer cannot easily escape responsibility for the car being of merchantable quality. The description is particularly critical if the car is described as outstanding or in as new condition or other such phrases then the dealer will have serious responsibilities.
Having said that there must be a limit to the liabilities pertaining to the dealer with any car sold more than say 20 years old. There will be faults which may not be apparent upon any reasonable infection and the buyer could have a problem in consequence. The repairs may be regarded as beyond reasonable enquiries by the dealer.
Caveat Emptor still applies to most car sales and unless a majjor item fails totally within any specified guarantee period if a guarantee is offered then the dealer shoud be liable. Some dealers attempt to offer cars for sale "as seen" to limit their liability and some dealers are wide boys who simply stonewall all complaints and rely on obfuscation and the like to frustrate the buyers.
Depends on the specific details of the implied contract between the two parties and the detailed paperwork if there is any. But in principle a trading dealer selling a vehicle to a private buyer does have responsibilities on quality issues in theory. In practice a lot depends on the attitude and approach of the specific dealer.
Having said that there must be a limit to the liabilities pertaining to the dealer with any car sold more than say 20 years old. There will be faults which may not be apparent upon any reasonable infection and the buyer could have a problem in consequence. The repairs may be regarded as beyond reasonable enquiries by the dealer.
Caveat Emptor still applies to most car sales and unless a majjor item fails totally within any specified guarantee period if a guarantee is offered then the dealer shoud be liable. Some dealers attempt to offer cars for sale "as seen" to limit their liability and some dealers are wide boys who simply stonewall all complaints and rely on obfuscation and the like to frustrate the buyers.
Depends on the specific details of the implied contract between the two parties and the detailed paperwork if there is any. But in principle a trading dealer selling a vehicle to a private buyer does have responsibilities on quality issues in theory. In practice a lot depends on the attitude and approach of the specific dealer.
Read the description and get the car professionally inspected before you buy. There's not much more you can do than that if you want to take the risk out of buying an old car. I would never hold out much hope of getting help from a classic car dealer. I fully expect dozens or more to go straight to the wall when the market turns, just like the estate agents that have (re)sprung up.
Steffan, your understanding of the term "caveat emptor" appears to be the opposite to what the term means.
The obligations imposed on business sellers by the Sale of Goods Act 1979 apply to a business sale of a classic car; but faults that are attributable to age and wear are less likely to indicate a breach of those obligations than would similar faults on a new car.
There isn't usually an "implied contract" when someone buys a car. The contract is made expressly, whether orally or in writing.
The obligations imposed on business sellers by the Sale of Goods Act 1979 apply to a business sale of a classic car; but faults that are attributable to age and wear are less likely to indicate a breach of those obligations than would similar faults on a new car.
There isn't usually an "implied contract" when someone buys a car. The contract is made expressly, whether orally or in writing.
I add that I have once invoked the Sale of Goods Act when a classic car that I bought from a dealer promptly displayed previously undisclosed faults that I regarded (I think reasonably) as more than the expected classic car niggles. The dealer agreed to carry out the repairs that I requested.
Breadvan, How does it work with classic car auctions ?
I assume they have less responsibility as they rely on the owners description to alleviate any direct responsibility.
Seems to me they have the best of all worlds. They take a much higher return than a classic dealer would (if selling on your behalf) and yet they don't take any responsibility for the product.
I assume they have less responsibility as they rely on the owners description to alleviate any direct responsibility.
Seems to me they have the best of all worlds. They take a much higher return than a classic dealer would (if selling on your behalf) and yet they don't take any responsibility for the product.
If an auctioneer sells as agent for a principal who is not a business seller, and this fact ought reasonably to be known to the buyer, then the obligations that bind business sellers do not apply to the sale. In addition, classic car auctioneers sometimes sell cars as objects, not as roadworthy vehicles. They do get sued sometimes, but more usually when there is a dispute about provenance or description of a car than for "the alternator is shagged" type of things.
I sell classics and I try and prepare to a high standard and choose my customers carefully...99% undertand that something 30 years + is going to need constant tinkering, however you get a good idea if a customer has very unrealistic expectation and if you feel its going to be hassle.
Classic car auctions don't warrant their description. Here is Coy's small print.
"No warranty is given by Coys as to the accuracy of the description of any Lot in any Catalogue or as to the age, authenticity, suitability, provenance, attribution,origin, condition, fitness for purpose, merchantable or satisfactory quality of any Lot or roadworthiness of any Motor Vehicle…
In bidding for any Lot, the Buyer acknowledges that he does not rely on any representation made to him by Coys, its employees or agents unless such representation has been confirmed by Coys in writing prior to the Auction".
A bit of fun here - Classic car auction descriptions translated
"No warranty is given by Coys as to the accuracy of the description of any Lot in any Catalogue or as to the age, authenticity, suitability, provenance, attribution,origin, condition, fitness for purpose, merchantable or satisfactory quality of any Lot or roadworthiness of any Motor Vehicle…
In bidding for any Lot, the Buyer acknowledges that he does not rely on any representation made to him by Coys, its employees or agents unless such representation has been confirmed by Coys in writing prior to the Auction".
A bit of fun here - Classic car auction descriptions translated
northo said:
Classic car auctions don't warrant their description. Here is Coy's small print.
"No warranty is given by Coys as to the accuracy of the description of any Lot in any Catalogue or as to the age, authenticity, suitability, provenance, attribution,origin, condition, fitness for purpose, merchantable or satisfactory quality of any Lot or roadworthiness of any Motor Vehicle…
In bidding for any Lot, the Buyer acknowledges that he does not rely on any representation made to him by Coys, its employees or agents unless such representation has been confirmed by Coys in writing prior to the Auction".
And no one can say they don't follow that to the letter....."No warranty is given by Coys as to the accuracy of the description of any Lot in any Catalogue or as to the age, authenticity, suitability, provenance, attribution,origin, condition, fitness for purpose, merchantable or satisfactory quality of any Lot or roadworthiness of any Motor Vehicle…
In bidding for any Lot, the Buyer acknowledges that he does not rely on any representation made to him by Coys, its employees or agents unless such representation has been confirmed by Coys in writing prior to the Auction".
mph said:
northo said:
Classic car auctions don't warrant their description. Here is Coy's small print.
"No warranty is given by Coys as to the accuracy of the description of any Lot in any Catalogue or as to the age, authenticity, suitability, provenance, attribution,origin, condition, fitness for purpose, merchantable or satisfactory quality of any Lot or roadworthiness of any Motor Vehicle…
In bidding for any Lot, the Buyer acknowledges that he does not rely on any representation made to him by Coys, its employees or agents unless such representation has been confirmed by Coys in writing prior to the Auction".
And no one can say they don't follow that to the letter....."No warranty is given by Coys as to the accuracy of the description of any Lot in any Catalogue or as to the age, authenticity, suitability, provenance, attribution,origin, condition, fitness for purpose, merchantable or satisfactory quality of any Lot or roadworthiness of any Motor Vehicle…
In bidding for any Lot, the Buyer acknowledges that he does not rely on any representation made to him by Coys, its employees or agents unless such representation has been confirmed by Coys in writing prior to the Auction".
It's not that much different, and won't be effective if there has in fact been a misrepresentation. Coys have been sued a few times, and sometimes successfully.
I have only once attended a classic car auction. I had handed my Interceptor to the taxman in lieu of tax (ouch!), and went to the auction with a friend who was going to try to buy it back, (sadly, we failed). We both felt that we needed a shower in Vim after mingling with the people who inhabit classic car auction world.
I have only once attended a classic car auction. I had handed my Interceptor to the taxman in lieu of tax (ouch!), and went to the auction with a friend who was going to try to buy it back, (sadly, we failed). We both felt that we needed a shower in Vim after mingling with the people who inhabit classic car auction world.
Breadvan72 said:
Lots of permatanned blokes with women too young for them, enormo Chanel sunglasses on the women's heads, watches big enough to be seen from space, dealers, smoothie auctioneer, general air of wealth not worn lightly.
Standard Nouveau Riche then ;-)Thanks for the image, though - and might I say, very well put. The consensus to the original question seems to be, "dealers still have legal responsibilities, but they may be more ready to point out that you can't expect a 60 year old British car to still be tip top functional". Thing is, if I was spending (say) £100k on a minter E-type, I'd expect that the dealer would maybe have put £5-10k into making sure it was as good as it could be.
Now that's dealt with, on with the auction stories - so, what's David Dickinson really like, then?
9mm said:
How is such a statement any different from a car wash operator's "We accept no responsibility for any damage"?
It's probably not that much different. I do think that most buyers would assume that auction houses exercise some due diligence before posting the description, history and provenance of a sale vehicle though. Particularly on high value and/or vehicles of historical importance/provenance.
Unfortunately that's frequently not the case.
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