Trigger Happy Police.
Discussion
Two people have been shot dead by armed UK Police in the last two years. Considering the amount of armed criminals they confront that's bloody impressive (as in impressively low). Is the restraint costing Police lives? Not really apart from the two poor lasses killed by the nutter with the hand grenade I can't remember when we last lost an officer to an armed criminal.
Ever get the feeling the UK is doing something very right and the USA are doing something very wrong.
Ever get the feeling the UK is doing something very right and the USA are doing something very wrong.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Ever get the feeling the UK is doing something very right and the USA are doing something very wrong.
tenpenceshort said:
Is there a relationship between guns in circulation and number of gun deaths? I imagine we have less guns in circulation therefore we have less gun deaths.
I thank you!tenpenceshort said:
Is there a relationship between guns in circulation and number of gun deaths? I imagine we have less guns in circulation therefore we have less gun deaths.
The stats are widely available.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_l...
From a narrow sample size, the majority of police shooting a suspect seem to be when the other party had a gun. Some defending against a vehicle, some against a knife.
But guns do seem to breed guns as a response. I know the US well, and like it as a country very much but their relationship with the gun is hard to fathom - it has gone to an extreme.
Vaud said:
Would you care to contribute an opinion? Or just chuck rocks form the side and present a closed statement?
In case you hadn't guessed, your post was not there when I typed. The opening salvo comparing UK vs US is a classic, and obviously people without guns cannot use them. Well done both.But us plebs having our own French Revolution has been a worry since, well, the French Revolution and it only got worse with our troops playing football with the Germans' at Christmas during the Great War, not to mention the Bolsheviks having their revolution. So we get nothing but spin on this issue. At every opportunity. And sometimes seemingly out of the blue, as in this case. A complex issue reduced to "guns are bad m'kay" at every opportunity.
It isn't about guns, it is just about control.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Two people have been shot dead by armed UK Police in the last two years. Considering the amount of armed criminals they confront that's bloody impressive (as in impressively low). Is the restraint costing Police lives? Not really apart from the two poor lasses killed by the nutter with the hand grenade I can't remember when we last lost an officer to an armed criminal.
Ever get the feeling the UK is doing something very right and the USA are doing something very wrong.
We have lost two in the last 10 yrs in West Yorkshire.Ever get the feeling the UK is doing something very right and the USA are doing something very wrong.
Ian Broadhurst and Sharon Beshenivsky
But I do agree that we have got it broadly right in only having a few very well trained Officers who carry firearms and the relative lack of firearms available out on the street.
I've read Stop! Armed Police and found it very useful, something like only seven people have been killed by armed Police in the Met (up until last year or the year before off the top of my head).
Well worth reading for anyone interested in that kind of thing
.
Well worth reading for anyone interested in that kind of thing
.With all my dislike of the police, this is one area where I give them a lot of respect. The restraint they show in the face of such danger is second to none.
The chances of an unarmed person ending up shot after a routine encounter with UK policeman is probably zero. Someone might mention De Menezes and Stanley cases but in those situations, police were working off flawed info. When I say routine, I mean a meeting initiated solely by an individual police man.
In the US the number of people that end up dead/injured after such contact with the police is staggering. Too many cases of unarmed people getting shot and the police just use the "I saw him/her reaching for the waistline" excuse
The chances of an unarmed person ending up shot after a routine encounter with UK policeman is probably zero. Someone might mention De Menezes and Stanley cases but in those situations, police were working off flawed info. When I say routine, I mean a meeting initiated solely by an individual police man.
In the US the number of people that end up dead/injured after such contact with the police is staggering. Too many cases of unarmed people getting shot and the police just use the "I saw him/her reaching for the waistline" excuse
grumbledoak said:
But us plebs having our own French Revolution has been a worry since, well, the French Revolution and it only got worse with our troops playing football with the Germans' at Christmas during the Great War, not to mention the Bolsheviks having their revolution. So we get nothing but spin on this issue. At every opportunity. And sometimes seemingly out of the blue, as in this case. A complex issue reduced to "guns are bad m'kay" at every opportunity.
It isn't about guns, it is just about control.
How is it a "complex issue"? Fewer gun deaths is unequivocally a very good thing. Fewer guns unequivocally mean fewer gun deaths. Therefore fewer guns is also a very good thing.It isn't about guns, it is just about control.
Is there a flip side? Well, no, not really. Some people have shotguns for vermin control - and they're allowed, with strict control. And they're rarely used in gun crimes. Other than that, the only possible reason to have a gun is "Well, I want one. Just because." Umm, sorry. That's a very poor excuse given the downsides.
If I've missed something, please feel free to enlighten me.
Eclassy said:
With all my dislike of the police, this is one area where I give them a lot of respect. The restraint they show in the face of such danger is second to none.
The chances of an unarmed person ending up shot after a routine encounter with UK policeman is probably zero. Someone might mention De Menezes and Stanley cases but in those situations, police were working off flawed info. When I say routine, I mean a meeting initiated solely by an individual police man.
In the US the number of people that end up dead/injured after such contact with the police is staggering. Too many cases of unarmed people getting shot and the police just use the "I saw him/her reaching for the waistline" excuse
I believe there have been more prisioners shoot themselves while handcuffed in the back of police cars in the US in the last year than shot by the British police in the sane year.The chances of an unarmed person ending up shot after a routine encounter with UK policeman is probably zero. Someone might mention De Menezes and Stanley cases but in those situations, police were working off flawed info. When I say routine, I mean a meeting initiated solely by an individual police man.
In the US the number of people that end up dead/injured after such contact with the police is staggering. Too many cases of unarmed people getting shot and the police just use the "I saw him/her reaching for the waistline" excuse
At least the US police incident reports claim they were self inflicted wounds - clever to shoot yourself in the chest while hands are cuffed behind your back..
I don't think it's necessarily the number of guns in circulation which is the issue, rather it's the attitude to using them.
It's hard to find accurate data, but most surveys suggest there are about 280 million guns in the US (enough for 9 out of every 10 citizens to be armed). Switzerland has about fourth highest gun ownership (1 for every 2 citizens) yet has only had 1 mass shooting in recent times and has .5 firearm killings per 100,000 population compared to 5 per 100,000 in the US. (http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/ ).
Martin4x4 said:
This good record won't stop the Police haters and criminal apologist crawling out the wood work every time there is an incident like yesterday.
American seems to be (very) slowly losing it obsession with guns.
At that rate, it'll be about 50 years before they lose their no 1 spot in the gun ownership tables!American seems to be (very) slowly losing it obsession with guns.
Edited by Martin4x4 on Saturday 6th September 09:56
tenpenceshort said:
Is there a relationship between guns in circulation and number of gun deaths? I imagine we have less guns in circulation therefore we have less gun deaths.
FEWER guns, fewer deaths, goddammit! Do that again and I'll shoot you.The stats for the US show that high gun ownership and high gun deaths appear to go together. We can file this under No s
t Sherlock.I is disappoint that no one has gone on about "why can't they shoot the gun/knife/bat/table leg out of his hand".
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 6th September 13:23
Breadvan72 said:
FEWER guns, fewer deaths, goddammit! Do that again and I'll shoot you.
The stats for the US show that high gun ownership and high gun deaths appear to go together. We can file thus under No st Sherlock.
I is disappoint that no one has gone on about "why can't they shoot the gun/knife/bat/table leg out of his hand".
You don't have permission to shoot me unfewer you manage to shoot me on the fingernail of my left little finger from 145 yards.The stats for the US show that high gun ownership and high gun deaths appear to go together. We can file thus under No s
t Sherlock.I is disappoint that no one has gone on about "why can't they shoot the gun/knife/bat/table leg out of his hand".
Martin4x4 said:
This good record won't stop the Police haters and criminal apologist crawling out the wood work every time there is an incident like yesterday.
Americans seems to be (very) slowly losing its ridiculous obsession with guns.
Just shows how misleading stats can be. For every poll there is a balance:Americans seems to be (very) slowly losing its ridiculous obsession with guns.
Self-Reported Gun Ownership in U.S. Is Highest Since 1993 (2011 report)
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gu...
Fewer U.S. gun owners own more guns (2012)
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/31/politics/gun-own...
Some analysis at:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/11/has-the...
Note that many of the stats on guns in the US are based on market surveys and self reporting census, not sales or any inspections/licences.
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