Classic car bubble and P.O.A.!!

[DegsyE39]

Just been sat reading a couple of copies of ''Classic and sportscar'' not the best car rag i know but bear with me..

One is dated October 2005 and was one of the last copies i bought when i was still at school , Prices of somethings are shocking especially Miura's Facel vegas countaches and so on... It seems being involved in driving and owning classic cars was just something for the beards and the pedants back then, A couple of dealers in the back pages where still a little optimistic in regards to pricing cars back then but nothing insane...

Anyway the first copy ive picked up since then is dated September 2014 and how things have changed since then.. I was always fond of saving the best bit ie the classifieds till last, But its a shocking state of affairs hardly a price on anything!!! Nothing that reasonably priced apart from the odd alfasud and a triumph 2000.

A lot of talk of investment this consultant that.. Yawn

Simply put im going to be sticking to the bargain barge/basement threads on here for a while!!!

Opinions anyone is it all just a house of cards??

[DJP]

DegsyE39 said:

...Opinions anyone is it all just a house of cards??

Yep.

I'm old enough (just) to remember the last classic car boom... And subsequent bust.

[SEE YA]

The dealers are the ones who could lose the most unsold stock.
Some cars will even go higher. some will drop a bit and level out.
When money gets tight, cars are one of the first things people sell and buyers think twice about buying a classic car. Its not high on people's list of things, to buy as many are a second car.

As did the market last time, however the interest in the classic car market and with the internet the world at your finger tips. This has in turn opened the classic car market to more people around the world.
More people can see cars for sale, from their own home in comfort.
Things like Ebay and other sites all have classic cars for sale and more people now enjoy this pastime.
Its big money spares,garages,jobs are all part of the classic car movement. Just look at classic car shows the crowds are high.
VW campers have held steady, for over five years now, Beetle's a good one 5k plus.

A/C stuff going mad and Boxster less than 4k 996 Turbo's less than 30k

I just buy the ones, I like never thought about going up or down value wise.
Buy the model you like and drive it enjoy the car for what it is.

'EVERY MILE IS A SMILE'

Edited by SEE YA on Sunday 7th September 09:07

[DegsyE39]

Maybe im just bitter because i missed the boat with e39 m5's and nice clean E36 m3's

But i see you point swings and roundabouts i guess when you look how cheap something like a R129 Mercedes SL is or an alfa 145 cloverleaf
Even the amount of nice saabs and so on that are like sub £1000

Guess we'll just see how it pans out

Regards.

[TheAngryDog]

DegsyE39 said:

Maybe im just bitter because i missed the boat with e39 m5's and nice clean E36 m3's

Define missed the boat? Both cars can still be had cheap enough.

[EricE]

I’ve noticed that it isn’t just classic cars but also relatively current cars that have the slightest potential to be future classic cars. Or any Porsche.

Feels to me like Dacia could announce a Sandero Nürburgring Edition limited to 20.000 examples to celebrate a sub-20 minute laptime and they would sell out in minutes.

[Art0ir]

EricE said:

I’ve noticed that it isn’t just classic cars but also relatively current cars that have the slightest potential to be future classic cars. Or any Porsche.

Feels to me like Dacia could announce a Sandero Nürburgring Edition limited to 20.000 examples to celebrate a sub-20 minute laptime and they would sell out in minutes.

R34 GTR.

[traffman]

I remember the last real boom in the classic market , namely Ferrari's , after Enzo passed away.

They did return to normality , i hope it happens again.

[swisstoni]

With the market as large (as in worldwide) as it is now, perhaps there is the possibility for bubbles to appear and burst without taking the whole 'house of cards' with them. It appears that certain fairly mainstream Porsche cars have quadrupled in price recently - that has to be unsustainable and so will be a bubble that bursts. But would that necessarily affect classic Astons for example?

[TheAngryDog]

Gaz. said:

TheAngryDog said:

DegsyE39 said:

Maybe im just bitter because i missed the boat with e39 m5's and nice clean E36 m3's

Define missed the boat? Both cars can still be had cheap enough.

Not as cheap as they were 18 months ago though, especially the E39.

There was an article in the Independent that a lot of stock in the auctions didn't even make their reserves in the last month or so.

Its all relative to what you want to buy. My own M5 was up for sale recently for £4k as it needs a bit of work doing to it, but I've since decided to keep it and put some money into it now that circumstances have improved for me.

[PomBstard]

My favourite POA at the moment, if only because I've been to view the car and have seen the price in the window. All those bleating on about E39 and E36 Ms take note...

http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C528377

[TheAngryDog]

Of course, E28's command a higher value.

[PomBstard]

TheAngryDog said:

Of course, E28's command a higher value.

Thanks for pointing that out. Anyway, the same showroom also has a Mk2 Escort RS2000 for GBP40k

[TheAngryDog]

PomBstard said:

TheAngryDog said:

Of course, E28's command a higher value.

Thanks for pointing that out. Anyway, the same showroom also has a Mk2 Escort RS2000 for GBP40k

Not sure if being sarcastic...... The E39 is the bargain of the century in terms of the M5 cars right now, and to a lesser extent, all of the proper M cars. As with the E46, it is the last of the analogue M's, and while the E6x and F1x are awesome cars, pick a good E39 and it'll only go one way in value, albeit not to the extent of the E28. E6x's are more expensive at the moment as they're newer, but some E39's are valued and selling at some prices higher than the lower end of the E6x. The time to get into an E39 M5 is now IMO.

[PomBstard]

TheAngryDog said:

PomBstard said:

TheAngryDog said:

Of course, E28's command a higher value.

Thanks for pointing that out. Anyway, the same showroom also has a Mk2 Escort RS2000 for GBP40k

Not sure if being sarcastic......

Was a bit, but only in the context of "older car being worth more as a classic" bleedin' obvious sort of comment. Anyway, nowt meant by it.

The reason for the link was that, whilst I don't follow prices that closely, we do seem to have reached a point when something like an E28 M5 can now be advertised "POA". The dealer selling the car also doesn't often put "POA" and is not usually bothered about advertising high prices - see the aforementioned RS2000 as an example - though this time does seem to be setting a standard...

Edited to add that I do agree with the rest of the comment about E36/E39 - advertised prices here seem to have bottomed, with only the worst falling lower. E39 still usually priced higher than E34 for the time being.

Edited by PomBstard on Sunday 7th September 06:08

[LooneyTunes]

I don't get the whole "POA" thing at all.

Yes, there's an argument that if you're in the market for a certain car then you'll know roughly what one will cost but with POA:

1: Unless you know the dealer's reputation already then you've got no idea how fairly they price; and
2: It removes the potential for someone casually browsing/looking for something else to see something they'd not considered and could afford.

Dealers obviously see some merit (or they wouldn't do it) but the prospect of wasted time means I don't see myself ever phoning a dealer about a POA vehicle.

[Pints]

Gaz. said:

Not as cheap as they were 18 months ago though, especially the E39.

There was an article in the Independent that a lot of stock in the auctions didn't even make their reserves in the last month or so.

If they're not making their reserve price, then they're not in line with the market price. The auction house is setting the reserve too high or, more likely, just waiting for the right sucker to come along.

[Dick Dastardly]

traffman said:

I remember the last real boom in the classic market , namely Ferrari's , after Enzo passed away.

They did return to normality , i hope it happens again.

As do I. My list of cars to own include a DB5, an F40, a 190sl and a first generation 911. I obsess about them on a daily basis. I could have picked the lot up for about £400k a couple of years ago, whereas now I'd need over a million. I can't earn the money quick enough to keep up with their price rises.

One of the reasons for the boom is that this is one of very few investment types that is tax free. You can make millions on a classic Ferrari and not pay and tax on it. Cars only need to rise at half the rate of things like shares or commercial property and in real terms, you are already better off.

[wildcat45]

Last time I enquired about POA I was in an art gallery. Nothing too flash, just a gallery in a city centre. I went up to the sales lady as I really did like the picture.

"It says price on application. I am applying" I said with a smile.
"Yes Sir, it's £42,000." She replied.

I don't get it, why not just put the price up there? The other paintings ranged from several hundred to 2-3K Just because you have to ask what it's worth doesn't make it any easier to afford or not afford.

Surely if you are rich enough to afford to buy a POA item without thought to the cost, you are shrewd enough to not be taken in by an attempt to make something mysterious or exclusive.

Needless to say £42.000 was beyond my means by £39,500 or so.

[LooneyTunes]

wildcat45 said:

Surely if you are rich enough to afford to buy a POA item without thought to the cost, you are shrewd enough to not be taken in by an attempt to make something mysterious or exclusive.

Not to mention that being easily able to afford something doesn't necessarily mean you want to spend the cash if you think the price quoted is too high!

Even worse I guess (as it's not a problem I'm ever likely to have) would be if you are known to be "of means" and suspect that the price will be adjusted accordingly when they hear your name.