Discussion
Submarines are covered in sound absorbing panels (acoustic tiles), a thick black rubber like material which is effective at reducing the range at which sonar is effective. If you can get close enough then any sub can be detected. It's worth noting that an active ping is a pretty good way of giving away your own position and if you are hunting a hunter killer submarine then that might not be too great of an idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_tile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anechoic_tile
For the SSBN's it's all about floating around at a few knots finding water anomalies that will hide you further while waiting for the call to bring about the end of times. They are heavily sound insulated and have measures to help hide their magnetic signatures, absolutely everything they do is about remaining undetected.
For the attack subs they mostly listen with very powerful passive sonar and hydrophones, the Astute can listen to traffic moving about a third of the world away, while 'pinging' with an active sonar makes for good scenes in movies it is mostly a rare and questionable action, if you ping someone to find them you best be very sure that you can get your fish in the water and on target before they can trace it back to you. Pinging can be used in war games as kind of a tap on the should 'I know you are there' and for other effects but there is a reason it's called the 'silent service'.
For the attack subs they mostly listen with very powerful passive sonar and hydrophones, the Astute can listen to traffic moving about a third of the world away, while 'pinging' with an active sonar makes for good scenes in movies it is mostly a rare and questionable action, if you ping someone to find them you best be very sure that you can get your fish in the water and on target before they can trace it back to you. Pinging can be used in war games as kind of a tap on the should 'I know you are there' and for other effects but there is a reason it's called the 'silent service'.
Nuclear submarine refers to the propulsion system not the weapons. In the Royal Navy submarines fall into two roles. SSBN (e.g Trident Nuclear Missile Submarines actual Vanguard Class) which spend all their time hiding. Fleet Attack submarines opperate as Hunter Killers for SSBN submarines and surface targets. Astute & Trafalgar classes. These do carry conventional cruise missiles and in theory can carry Nuclear armed cruise missiles but convention wisdom is they do not normally do this.
Given their different roles they have different empasise to stealth and detection hiding vs hunting.
MartG said:
As mentioned above, using active sonar is like waving a big flag telling the opposition "here I am".
I'm given to understand that it is possible to test a weapon sonar whilst the weapon is still in the tube - flooded, with the door open, obviouslyApparently the effect of performing such a test directly behind a submarine not belonging to the UK that had been sniffing around the Firth of Clyde, and which wasn't aware such a test was going to be performed (or even that there was anyone else in the vicinity) has quite an impressive effect.
eharding said:
I'm given to understand that it is possible to test a weapon sonar whilst the weapon is still in the tube - flooded, with the door open, obviously
Apparently the effect of performing such a test directly behind a submarine not belonging to the UK that had been sniffing around the Firth of Clyde, and which wasn't aware such a test was going to be performed (or even that there was anyone else in the vicinity) has quite an impressive effect.
Apparently the effect of performing such a test directly behind a submarine not belonging to the UK that had been sniffing around the Firth of Clyde, and which wasn't aware such a test was going to be performed (or even that there was anyone else in the vicinity) has quite an impressive effect.
THX said:
Jesus...
That kind of covers off my question; has there been any instance of submarines actually engaging one another outside WW2?
It only successfully happened once in WW2 (or ever, for that matter)That kind of covers off my question; has there been any instance of submarines actually engaging one another outside WW2?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_9_February_...
Oh.
I was actually expecting the submarine equivalent of Ginnetta Girl to come along and berate me for my lack of knowledge of under-the-sea warfare! Maybe it happens all the time?!
... but apparently not. Does seem all rather excessive; blowing another nuclear powered boat to bits. But, I suppose why would you hear of it if it did happen?
I was actually expecting the submarine equivalent of Ginnetta Girl to come along and berate me for my lack of knowledge of under-the-sea warfare! Maybe it happens all the time?!
... but apparently not. Does seem all rather excessive; blowing another nuclear powered boat to bits. But, I suppose why would you hear of it if it did happen?
THX said:
Oh.
I was actually expecting the submarine equivalent of Ginnetta Girl to come along and berate me for my lack of knowledge of under-the-sea warfare! Maybe it happens all the time?!
... but apparently not. Does seem all rather excessive; blowing another nuclear powered boat to bits. But, I suppose why would you hear of it if it did happen?
Well, a) as I understand it Ginetta Girl spent a considerable amount of her career poised to explosively cancel submarines from the air, rather than being vewy-vewy-quiet and sneaking up on them from behind and b) I've never seen her get annoyed at uninformed questions. Uninformed *answers* on the other hand, annoy us all - and she has an excellent track record in explosively cancelling some of those.I was actually expecting the submarine equivalent of Ginnetta Girl to come along and berate me for my lack of knowledge of under-the-sea warfare! Maybe it happens all the time?!
... but apparently not. Does seem all rather excessive; blowing another nuclear powered boat to bits. But, I suppose why would you hear of it if it did happen?
FunkyNige said:
THX said:
Jesus...
That kind of covers off my question; has there been any instance of submarines actually engaging one another outside WW2?
It only successfully happened once in WW2 (or ever, for that matter)That kind of covers off my question; has there been any instance of submarines actually engaging one another outside WW2?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_9_February_...
THX said:
Jesus...
That kind of covers off my question; has there been any instance of submarines actually engaging one another outside WW2?
Typically they "engage" accidentally where one is running so quietly that the other has no way of knowing it's there. One simply runs into the other. If any "active" systems are switched on, they just gives away your own position, so passive is the norm. That kind of covers off my question; has there been any instance of submarines actually engaging one another outside WW2?
eharding said:
THX said:
Oh.
I was actually expecting the submarine equivalent of Ginnetta Girl to come along and berate me for my lack of knowledge of under-the-sea warfare! Maybe it happens all the time?!
... but apparently not. Does seem all rather excessive; blowing another nuclear powered boat to bits. But, I suppose why would you hear of it if it did happen?
Well, a) as I understand it Ginetta Girl spent a considerable amount of her career poised to explosively cancel submarines from the air, rather than being vewy-vewy-quiet and sneaking up on them from behind and b) I've never seen her get annoyed at uninformed questions. Uninformed *answers* on the other hand, annoy us all - and she has an excellent track record in explosively cancelling some of those.I was actually expecting the submarine equivalent of Ginnetta Girl to come along and berate me for my lack of knowledge of under-the-sea warfare! Maybe it happens all the time?!
... but apparently not. Does seem all rather excessive; blowing another nuclear powered boat to bits. But, I suppose why would you hear of it if it did happen?
THX said:
eharding said:
THX said:
Oh.
I was actually expecting the submarine equivalent of Ginnetta Girl to come along and berate me for my lack of knowledge of under-the-sea warfare! Maybe it happens all the time?!
... but apparently not. Does seem all rather excessive; blowing another nuclear powered boat to bits. But, I suppose why would you hear of it if it did happen?
Well, a) as I understand it Ginetta Girl spent a considerable amount of her career poised to explosively cancel submarines from the air, rather than being vewy-vewy-quiet and sneaking up on them from behind and b) I've never seen her get annoyed at uninformed questions. Uninformed *answers* on the other hand, annoy us all - and she has an excellent track record in explosively cancelling some of those.I was actually expecting the submarine equivalent of Ginnetta Girl to come along and berate me for my lack of knowledge of under-the-sea warfare! Maybe it happens all the time?!
... but apparently not. Does seem all rather excessive; blowing another nuclear powered boat to bits. But, I suppose why would you hear of it if it did happen?
Martin4x4 said:
FunkyNige said:
THX said:
Jesus...
That kind of covers off my question; has there been any instance of submarines actually engaging one another outside WW2?
It only successfully happened once in WW2 (or ever, for that matter)That kind of covers off my question; has there been any instance of submarines actually engaging one another outside WW2?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_9_February_...
http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/index.php?/topic...
e.g. USS Batfish, three kills.
It's not clear how many of the rest (e.g. Doris, Spearfish) involved submerged vs submerged subs.
eharding said:
MartG said:
As mentioned above, using active sonar is like waving a big flag telling the opposition "here I am".
I'm given to understand that it is possible to test a weapon sonar whilst the weapon is still in the tube - flooded, with the door open, obviouslyApparently the effect of performing such a test directly behind a submarine not belonging to the UK that had been sniffing around the Firth of Clyde, and which wasn't aware such a test was going to be performed (or even that there was anyone else in the vicinity) has quite an impressive effect.
Good grief...
"HMS Venturer (P68) was a World War II British submarine and the lead boat[1] of the V-Class (officially called the "'U'-Class Long hull 1941-42 program").
She sank U-771 on 11 November 1944 7 nautical miles (13 km) east of Andenes, Norway, off the Lofoten Islands. Her most famous mission, however, was her eleventh patrol out of the British submarine-base at Lerwick in the Shetland Islands, under the command of 25-year-old Jimmy Launders, which included the only time in the history of naval warfare that one submarine sank another while both were submerged.
Sent to the Fedje area, Venturer was then ordered (on the basis of Enigma decrypts) to seek, intercept and destroy U864 which was in this area carrying a cargo of 65 tonnes of mercury and Messerschmitt jet engine parts to Japan,[2][3]
On 6 February 1945 U864 passed the Fedja area without being detected, but on the 9th Venturer heard U-864's engine noise (Launders had decided not to use ASDIC since it would betray his position) and spotted the U-boat's periscope as her captain looked for his escort. In an unusually long engagement for a submarine and in a situation for which neither crew had been trained, Launders waited 45 minutes after first contact before going to action stations, waiting for U864 to surface and thus present an easier target. Upon realizing they were being followed by the British submarine and that their escort had still not arrived, U-864 zig-zagged underwater in attempted evasive manoeuvres, with each submarine occasionally risking raising her periscope.
Venturer had only 8 torpedoes as opposed to U-864's 22, and so after 3 hours Launders decided to make a prediction of his opponent's zig-zag, and release a spread of his torpedoes into its predicted course. This manual computation of a firing solution against a three-dimensionally manoeuvring target was the first occasion on which techniques were used which became the basis of modern torpedo computer targeting computer systems.[citation needed]
The first torpedo was released at 12.12 and then at 17 second intervals after that (taking 4 minutes to reach their target), and Launders then dived suddenly to evade any retaliation from his opponent. U864 heard the torpedoes coming and also dived deeper and turned away to avoid them, managing to avoid the first three but unknowingly steering into the path of the fourth. Exploding, U864 split in two, was sunk with all hands and came to rest more than 150 m (500 ft) below the surface on the seafloor. Launders was granted a bar to his DSO for this action.
During her career she also sank five merchant ships.[4]"
"HMS Venturer (P68) was a World War II British submarine and the lead boat[1] of the V-Class (officially called the "'U'-Class Long hull 1941-42 program").
She sank U-771 on 11 November 1944 7 nautical miles (13 km) east of Andenes, Norway, off the Lofoten Islands. Her most famous mission, however, was her eleventh patrol out of the British submarine-base at Lerwick in the Shetland Islands, under the command of 25-year-old Jimmy Launders, which included the only time in the history of naval warfare that one submarine sank another while both were submerged.
Sent to the Fedje area, Venturer was then ordered (on the basis of Enigma decrypts) to seek, intercept and destroy U864 which was in this area carrying a cargo of 65 tonnes of mercury and Messerschmitt jet engine parts to Japan,[2][3]
On 6 February 1945 U864 passed the Fedja area without being detected, but on the 9th Venturer heard U-864's engine noise (Launders had decided not to use ASDIC since it would betray his position) and spotted the U-boat's periscope as her captain looked for his escort. In an unusually long engagement for a submarine and in a situation for which neither crew had been trained, Launders waited 45 minutes after first contact before going to action stations, waiting for U864 to surface and thus present an easier target. Upon realizing they were being followed by the British submarine and that their escort had still not arrived, U-864 zig-zagged underwater in attempted evasive manoeuvres, with each submarine occasionally risking raising her periscope.
Venturer had only 8 torpedoes as opposed to U-864's 22, and so after 3 hours Launders decided to make a prediction of his opponent's zig-zag, and release a spread of his torpedoes into its predicted course. This manual computation of a firing solution against a three-dimensionally manoeuvring target was the first occasion on which techniques were used which became the basis of modern torpedo computer targeting computer systems.[citation needed]
The first torpedo was released at 12.12 and then at 17 second intervals after that (taking 4 minutes to reach their target), and Launders then dived suddenly to evade any retaliation from his opponent. U864 heard the torpedoes coming and also dived deeper and turned away to avoid them, managing to avoid the first three but unknowingly steering into the path of the fourth. Exploding, U864 split in two, was sunk with all hands and came to rest more than 150 m (500 ft) below the surface on the seafloor. Launders was granted a bar to his DSO for this action.
During her career she also sank five merchant ships.[4]"
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