Building "old" engines from scratch?
Discussion
Just a thought I've had a couple of times ready threads here- most commonly about aircraft spec Merlin's but also in other sections of PH talking about older cars, racing cars and bikes.
Clearly we are "using up" supplies of old engines, there is a limit to the number of refurbishments an engine can be subject too, eventually they'll be no block left!
I'm under no illusions it would be fantastically expensive and certainly not a business opportunity but does the ability exist to restart manufacture of classic, in demand, old engines if the pockets where deep enough?
(I'm an engineer, I know it can physically be done but am really wondering if drawings and tooling exists for some engines to ease the job or what skills or techniques might we have lost?)
How many Euro millions rollovers do I need to order a brand new crated Merlin or old F1 engine?
Clearly we are "using up" supplies of old engines, there is a limit to the number of refurbishments an engine can be subject too, eventually they'll be no block left!
I'm under no illusions it would be fantastically expensive and certainly not a business opportunity but does the ability exist to restart manufacture of classic, in demand, old engines if the pockets where deep enough?
(I'm an engineer, I know it can physically be done but am really wondering if drawings and tooling exists for some engines to ease the job or what skills or techniques might we have lost?)
How many Euro millions rollovers do I need to order a brand new crated Merlin or old F1 engine?
in one of my books about merlins it mentions how, when the americans came over for all the blue prints for the merlins (so they could start to build them at Packard), the guy brought a briefcase chained to his arm.
he was a bit put out when it was pointed out to him that the 'blue print set' for the merlin was something crazy like 11 tons and 5 pallets....
he was a bit put out when it was pointed out to him that the 'blue print set' for the merlin was something crazy like 11 tons and 5 pallets....
I don't know about crate Merlins(aside from ones buried in Burmese airfields
), but crate ex-MoD Meteors still come up for sale occasionally; I'm pretty sure there's at least one company who'll build you a new Merlin if you've got deep enough pockets.
As for slightly more ordinary stuff, I think you can get shiny new straight sixes for your DB4/5/6/S if the shine has worn off the old one and new crate engines are available for a lot of older Yank stuff, particularly Hemis.
), but crate ex-MoD Meteors still come up for sale occasionally; I'm pretty sure there's at least one company who'll build you a new Merlin if you've got deep enough pockets. As for slightly more ordinary stuff, I think you can get shiny new straight sixes for your DB4/5/6/S if the shine has worn off the old one and new crate engines are available for a lot of older Yank stuff, particularly Hemis.
Huntsman said:
The likes of Gardner build new engines from scratch.
I had a pair of remanufactured Gardeners in a boat. The blocks were from 1960's trucks but everything else was new.http://www.gardnermarine.com/
Kelvin have also been making the same engine for the last 40 years.
http://www.kelvindiesels.co.uk/engines.html
As with everything, its not a case of 'can it be done' its a case of 'how much are you paying'
For instance, the Vulcan's Olympus powerplants COULD be rebuilt, but it would be very very expensive, and involve reverse engineering all the components needed and the tooling for those, A relative who is fairly prominent at WGGTS commented on the fact they could do it, but would be looking at around 3m to tool up and aquire the correct paper trail for flight.
For instance, the Vulcan's Olympus powerplants COULD be rebuilt, but it would be very very expensive, and involve reverse engineering all the components needed and the tooling for those, A relative who is fairly prominent at WGGTS commented on the fact they could do it, but would be looking at around 3m to tool up and aquire the correct paper trail for flight.
Benjaminpalma said:
If nothing else, surely the basic castings could be made by metal printing?
Not sure you get the structural integrity required.Fishtigua said:
I had a pair of remanufactured Gardeners in a boat. The blocks were from 1960's trucks but everything else was new.
http://www.gardnermarine.com/
Kelvin have also been making the same engine for the last 40 years.
http://www.kelvindiesels.co.uk/engines.html
Different Gardner.http://www.gardnermarine.com/
Kelvin have also been making the same engine for the last 40 years.
http://www.kelvindiesels.co.uk/engines.html
Some Gump said:
As admirable as it would be to make a brand new Merlin, surely the first engine that needs a modern remake is the BRM V16? Imagine a Caterham with that powerplant...
Or a period replica BRM F1 car for that matter, either way- that noise... drool :-)I also noted some talk of NASA looking at modularizing and building the Apollo era main engines again at one point along the lines of- if it ain't broke why fix it?
I hadn't considered the Merlins where lined, so I suppose their life is pretty indefinite (bar crashes) but its not like you can drop in something "similar" to a plane, even if it works you end up changing the looks and sound, which can be as important as anything for a historic vehicle- can't really have a Lancaster without the Merlin drone or Vulcan without the howl (although I hear they specifically are trying to avoid that now due to engine life issues)
Someone mentioned old Aston Martin motors, do any of the manufacturers have a full heritage section? Can Ferrari supply a replacement F40 engine or RR a Meteor?
Lincsblokey said:
For instance, the Vulcan's Olympus powerplants COULD be rebuilt, but it would be very very expensive, and involve reverse engineering all the components needed and the tooling for those, A relative who is fairly prominent at WGGTS commented on the fact they could do it, but would be looking at around 3m to tool up and aquire the correct paper trail for flight.
RR aren't interested irrespective of money issues so without RR it simply couldn't happen, even if £3m, £5m or whatever money could be raised.Benjaminpalma said:
If nothing else, surely the basic castings could be made by metal printing?
I'm sure I read something the other night of a 3D printing process for Inconel (which is pretty much what most important parts of historic Jet engines are made from). Let's see if google can find. Here we go Direct Metal Laser Sintering. Mave said:
There's still a big difference between sintered 3d printing and forged inconel... How do you manage the grain structure?
No idea. Honda have been using sintered con rods for some time though. Really we'd need to know who is using this technique and what for.
Any more than that is a long, long way outside my expertise.
Mave said:
There's still a big difference between sintered 3d printing and forged inconel... How do you manage the grain structure?
Absolutely, never seen a printer that could go to that sizem component either - that said some clever sod will work out how to control and manipulate the grain structure and hardness/ductilityaeropilot said:
Lincsblokey said:
For instance, the Vulcan's Olympus powerplants COULD be rebuilt, but it would be very very expensive, and involve reverse engineering all the components needed and the tooling for those, A relative who is fairly prominent at WGGTS commented on the fact they could do it, but would be looking at around 3m to tool up and aquire the correct paper trail for flight.
RR aren't interested irrespective of money issues so without RR it simply couldn't happen, even if £3m, £5m or whatever money could be raised.I do agre though that it wont happen, purely down to financial costs.
scubadude said:
Some Gump said:
As admirable as it would be to make a brand new Merlin, surely the first engine that needs a modern remake is the BRM V16? Imagine a Caterham with that powerplant...
Or a period replica BRM F1 car for that matter, either way- that noise... drool :-)I also noted some talk of NASA looking at modularizing and building the Apollo era main engines again at one point along the lines of- if it ain't broke why fix it?
I hadn't considered the Merlins where lined, so I suppose their life is pretty indefinite (bar crashes) but its not like you can drop in something "similar" to a plane, even if it works you end up changing the looks and sound, which can be as important as anything for a historic vehicle- can't really have a Lancaster without the Merlin drone or Vulcan without the howl (although I hear they specifically are trying to avoid that now due to engine life issues)
Someone mentioned old Aston Martin motors, do any of the manufacturers have a full heritage section? Can Ferrari supply a replacement F40 engine or RR a Meteor?
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