Car restoration problems - advice?
Discussion
I put my TVR in for its MOT and service last December at a well respected specialist. I had noticed issues - it was showing signs of head gasket failure and oil consumption was a touch high.
I received a phone call to the effect that some rot had been found in a chassis outrigger so not wanting to do half measures, I authorised a body lift to see where we were at. The engine was also removed at the same time and when this was partially stripped, various issues were found.
I authorised the necessary repairs to the chassis and engine. It was agreed that the engine would have a top end rebuild with all new parts and the block would be sent to be tested. An estimate for this was agreed including the parts to be used etc. I then received a phone call a couple of weeks later stating that a problem had been found with the block. It needed three new pistons and liners and so a bottom end rebuild was authorised with new parts as necessary and the block would be honed and balanced with new bearings all round. I was told that this wouldn't be too much more money but a price wasn't mentioned.
I received the car back in late February / early March and despite the bill, I was happy with the car overall. The engine had come out at substantially more than the estimate due to the work involved and I was marginally annoyed about this aspect as for the money paid, a brand new engine could have been installed.
Shortly after getting the car back, it broke down due to a core plug popping out on a run and the car dumping its coolant all over the road. Luckily I noticed straight away and had the car recovered back to the garage where they repaired it FOC.
I ran the car for just over 3000 miles but it was obvious there was a problem with the oil consumption. This had been increasing steadily since I had received the car back and it had got to the stage where it was showing head gasket failure once again, misfiring and the car was smoking on acceleration. The engine was stripped and I was told that the piston rings hadn't bedded in. Apparently, all the honing marks on the bores could be seen and all the bores were wet with oil which explained the HG symptoms as the oil was pushing past the HG. This was sometime in mid April.
The garage promised to rebuild the engine again and I received a phone call that the safest option would be to re-bore the engine and fit eight new pistons. It took two months to get the car back due to various parts issues. I drove the car home and it seemed to run OK. The next day, it broke down due to a terrible misfire. After managing to get it running, the car was taken down to the garage where they diagnosed a fuel issue and as they couldn't fix it there and then, I left it with them.
I got the car back about a week later but it was clear it wasn't right still. It was smoking and still running poorly after a short while driving. We are now at the middle of July and the garage admit he doesn't know what the problem is so he sent the car to probably one of the most respected specialists in the UK to repair.
They diagnosed a faulty inlet manifold gasket which was causing it to run rich and kill off the spark plugs.
I got the car back at the end of July and agreed to foot the bill for parts not duplicated. He was marginally naughty about this as I got charged for 8 new pistons and I had already paid for 3 initially but I wasn't going to argue over less than £100. All labour was free. I have been monitoring the oil consumption since and it is getting silly. It is using over a litre of oil every 100 miles and the smoke from the exhaust on acceleration makes the traffic behind disappear. The whole rear of the car is covered in filthy black soot and it is embarrassing. I have mentioned this to the garage and he is on holiday at the moment and has said he will get back to me on his return but he has mentioned it to the other specialist.
I am at a loss and I have had enough. I paid a lot of money to have this car repaired and after two engine rebuilds, it still isn't right. My confidence in this particular garage to put things right is at an extreme low.
What I really would like to know is how to proceed from now? I suspect that I need to get an engineer's report on the car before I take it any further. I need a legal battle like a hole in the head but enough is enough - The car hasn't been right for the last six months.
I received a phone call to the effect that some rot had been found in a chassis outrigger so not wanting to do half measures, I authorised a body lift to see where we were at. The engine was also removed at the same time and when this was partially stripped, various issues were found.
I authorised the necessary repairs to the chassis and engine. It was agreed that the engine would have a top end rebuild with all new parts and the block would be sent to be tested. An estimate for this was agreed including the parts to be used etc. I then received a phone call a couple of weeks later stating that a problem had been found with the block. It needed three new pistons and liners and so a bottom end rebuild was authorised with new parts as necessary and the block would be honed and balanced with new bearings all round. I was told that this wouldn't be too much more money but a price wasn't mentioned.
I received the car back in late February / early March and despite the bill, I was happy with the car overall. The engine had come out at substantially more than the estimate due to the work involved and I was marginally annoyed about this aspect as for the money paid, a brand new engine could have been installed.
Shortly after getting the car back, it broke down due to a core plug popping out on a run and the car dumping its coolant all over the road. Luckily I noticed straight away and had the car recovered back to the garage where they repaired it FOC.
I ran the car for just over 3000 miles but it was obvious there was a problem with the oil consumption. This had been increasing steadily since I had received the car back and it had got to the stage where it was showing head gasket failure once again, misfiring and the car was smoking on acceleration. The engine was stripped and I was told that the piston rings hadn't bedded in. Apparently, all the honing marks on the bores could be seen and all the bores were wet with oil which explained the HG symptoms as the oil was pushing past the HG. This was sometime in mid April.
The garage promised to rebuild the engine again and I received a phone call that the safest option would be to re-bore the engine and fit eight new pistons. It took two months to get the car back due to various parts issues. I drove the car home and it seemed to run OK. The next day, it broke down due to a terrible misfire. After managing to get it running, the car was taken down to the garage where they diagnosed a fuel issue and as they couldn't fix it there and then, I left it with them.
I got the car back about a week later but it was clear it wasn't right still. It was smoking and still running poorly after a short while driving. We are now at the middle of July and the garage admit he doesn't know what the problem is so he sent the car to probably one of the most respected specialists in the UK to repair.
They diagnosed a faulty inlet manifold gasket which was causing it to run rich and kill off the spark plugs.
I got the car back at the end of July and agreed to foot the bill for parts not duplicated. He was marginally naughty about this as I got charged for 8 new pistons and I had already paid for 3 initially but I wasn't going to argue over less than £100. All labour was free. I have been monitoring the oil consumption since and it is getting silly. It is using over a litre of oil every 100 miles and the smoke from the exhaust on acceleration makes the traffic behind disappear. The whole rear of the car is covered in filthy black soot and it is embarrassing. I have mentioned this to the garage and he is on holiday at the moment and has said he will get back to me on his return but he has mentioned it to the other specialist.
I am at a loss and I have had enough. I paid a lot of money to have this car repaired and after two engine rebuilds, it still isn't right. My confidence in this particular garage to put things right is at an extreme low.
What I really would like to know is how to proceed from now? I suspect that I need to get an engineer's report on the car before I take it any further. I need a legal battle like a hole in the head but enough is enough - The car hasn't been right for the last six months.
As you suggest, your next step should be to have the engine inspected by a respected specialist.
The repairer was obliged by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 to use reasonable skill and care in carrying out work. Whether he has or has not done so is mainly a matter for expert evidence. If an independent expert opines that the work was done carelessly, use that to negotiate a settlement. Be polite but firm in all correspondence and calls. Ultimately, you could sue if the expert evidence supports you, but treat that as a last resort.
Frankly, it sounds like the engine was massively knackered ,and maybe a new one would have been a better bet.
The repairer was obliged by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 to use reasonable skill and care in carrying out work. Whether he has or has not done so is mainly a matter for expert evidence. If an independent expert opines that the work was done carelessly, use that to negotiate a settlement. Be polite but firm in all correspondence and calls. Ultimately, you could sue if the expert evidence supports you, but treat that as a last resort.
Frankly, it sounds like the engine was massively knackered ,and maybe a new one would have been a better bet.
Cheers, I thought that was probably the way to go.
The car was run in according to instructions. The rev range was used up to about 4k but no full load situations etc. and the revs were varied.
I forgot to mention that when it went back the second time, I offered him a deal. I offered to pay half the cost of a new short engine if he had any doubts as to the block being OK and he paid the other half. He would have to stump up the labour FOC but he was doing that anyway so the only extra for him would be half the engine cost. I was assured that there was nothing wrong with the block and he would rebuild it again.
The car was run in according to instructions. The rev range was used up to about 4k but no full load situations etc. and the revs were varied.I forgot to mention that when it went back the second time, I offered him a deal. I offered to pay half the cost of a new short engine if he had any doubts as to the block being OK and he paid the other half. He would have to stump up the labour FOC but he was doing that anyway so the only extra for him would be half the engine cost. I was assured that there was nothing wrong with the block and he would rebuild it again.
You are obliged to act reasonably to mitigate your loss, but it is reasonable for you to have no confidence in the repairer, so you can go elsewhere. If the repairer offers to remedy the faults for nothing, you should at least consider that offer, but you could still decline it on the basis of previous history.
It's booked in to HHC - well recognised TVR specialist. All the breathers are clear (other than the vacuum pipe being wet with oil). If I remove the vacuum pipe from the breather and take off the oil cap it is puffing heavily and the fumes are visible - they stink of petrol. This can only be down to crankcase pressure, surely?
The car was rebuilt by a different well known TVR specialist.
The car was rebuilt by a different well known TVR specialist.
Edited by Trevor450 on Tuesday 9th September 13:39
You can have too much vacuum, this leads to oil being drawn into the breather circuit and then burnt. Plenty of help available in the TVR sub-forums, although expect diverging opinions.
If it's with a specialist with a track record for RV8 then you probably need to let him complete his diagnosis and go from there.
If it's with a specialist with a track record for RV8 then you probably need to let him complete his diagnosis and go from there.
I may be thinking along totally wrong lines but you say the last problem was diagnosed as a faulty inlet manifold gasket, were the heads or the block face skimmed while the engine was being rebuilt causing a very slight difference in the mating of manifold to head, isnt the inlet manifold and valley gasket one and the same on the RV8 ,has it been sealed on the valley. It sounds to me as if the vacum could be drawing oil out of the valley through slightly misaligned or unsealed gasket.
imagineifyeswill said:
I may be thinking along totally wrong lines but you say the last problem was diagnosed as a faulty inlet manifold gasket, were the heads or the block face skimmed while the engine was being rebuilt causing a very slight difference in the mating of manifold to head, isnt the inlet manifold and valley gasket one and the same on the RV8 ,has it been sealed on the valley. It sounds to me as if the vacum could be drawing oil out of the valley through slightly misaligned or unsealed gasket.
If that's the case, HHC will spot it. They have a very competent team and certainly know their TVR engines.Paul
From an engineers perspective and although not a RV8 expert I do run a Chim 450, several things come to mind, honing marks still visible? did you run on a standard mineral oil and then have it changed after a few 100 miles?
Problems with the bottom end, can you explain how these were described
As an engineer I would be reluctant to change 3 pistons if you are at that stage of strip down, change the lot
In retrospect as you say a short rebuilt block would prob been better from someone like V8D
It sounds as if its a bit of a mix and match repair
Problems with the bottom end, can you explain how these were described
As an engineer I would be reluctant to change 3 pistons if you are at that stage of strip down, change the lot
In retrospect as you say a short rebuilt block would prob been better from someone like V8D
It sounds as if its a bit of a mix and match repair
I was concerned myself at only changing three of the pistons but was assured that this was all that was needed. The bottom end was OK but as the engine was apart, all the crank shells and big end bearings were changed in any case. The three pistons that were damaged were all very tight at the gudgeon pin and the cylinders weren't round for whatever reason. They could only surmise that it had overheated very badly at some stage or had suffered oil starvation.
The first time it went back in April was when I was told that honing marks were still visible and the rings hadn't bedded. It was run on mineral oil for the first 1000 miles before being changed to semi. I expected a bit of consumption in the first few hundred miles so topped up with mineral but the consumption got worse resulting in it going back in April.
The consumption is now ludicrous and the smokescreen is worse than Del Boy's 3-wheeled van. I suspect massive amounts of blowby. I drove it today and it seems down on power to what it was a week ago but that may just be me. The fact that due to the amounts of oil I am adding it is effectively getting an oil change every 600 miles and the oil remains jet black points to a massive problem IMO. What really concerns me is that the guy is really scratching his head about the problem and keeps referring it to others means I have lost all confidence in him.
The first time it went back in April was when I was told that honing marks were still visible and the rings hadn't bedded. It was run on mineral oil for the first 1000 miles before being changed to semi. I expected a bit of consumption in the first few hundred miles so topped up with mineral but the consumption got worse resulting in it going back in April.
The consumption is now ludicrous and the smokescreen is worse than Del Boy's 3-wheeled van. I suspect massive amounts of blowby. I drove it today and it seems down on power to what it was a week ago but that may just be me. The fact that due to the amounts of oil I am adding it is effectively getting an oil change every 600 miles and the oil remains jet black points to a massive problem IMO. What really concerns me is that the guy is really scratching his head about the problem and keeps referring it to others means I have lost all confidence in him.
For better or worse, the car is going to TVR Power at the original garage's expense to have whatever it needs - whether that is a full rebuild by them or a new engine. He has agreed that I won't accept it back unless it is repaired properly and I am not spending another penny on it. I think the message has been received and understood.
I can't really afford to have the work done myself then go through another legal battle (the last one nearly killed me, literally) so I have accepted his proposal. The builder he used originally won't be involved as Power do all their own stuff.
I can't really afford to have the work done myself then go through another legal battle (the last one nearly killed me, literally) so I have accepted his proposal. The builder he used originally won't be involved as Power do all their own stuff.
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