How much to charge for a large website?
Discussion
Hi Guys
Recently I have found my self in the position of building a mock up site for a large company who are in the process of a very large online revamp.
There current site is about 6 years old but is functional, they really are looking for that fresh look, a responsive cross platform site and eCommerce capabilities.
They have been speaking to big web design companies already about doing this.
Question is how much do I charge? I plan to secure sites for there other companies too in the long run.
The site like I said will have:
circa 50-100 pages
Responsive
eCommerce
Social media integration
Diary Integration
Appointment co-ordinater
etc etc
I predict it will take me 4 solid weeks to complete from here.
Any ideas guys?
Recently I have found my self in the position of building a mock up site for a large company who are in the process of a very large online revamp.
There current site is about 6 years old but is functional, they really are looking for that fresh look, a responsive cross platform site and eCommerce capabilities.
They have been speaking to big web design companies already about doing this.
Question is how much do I charge? I plan to secure sites for there other companies too in the long run.
The site like I said will have:
circa 50-100 pages
Responsive
eCommerce
Social media integration
Diary Integration
Appointment co-ordinater
etc etc
I predict it will take me 4 solid weeks to complete from here.
Any ideas guys?
Without trying to be harsh, how do you predict it will take you 4 weeks? That's quite a heavy project with some of the features they want and it would take some experience to give a good, accurate estimate.
That being said, two things:
The crap answer would be to say how much is your day rate? If this is your first project (and that is mahoosive for a junior) then you'd be looking at no more than £100/day, average programmer would command £250/300 (dependant on which platform was used), top developers are £500/day+. You'd also want to enlist a designer, who tend to be slightly cheaper than devs. Agency prices tend to start at about £400-500/day depending on location in the UK and go into the thousands.
The good answer would be to say that there's not nearly enough of a spec there to give a good time estimate or quote.
What do you mean by mock up site?
Are pages = products? If not, how many products do they want?
Does social integration just mean Like/Tweet links everywhere or more in depth "Tweet about this order and receive a 10% off coupon".
How much traffic do you/they estimate?
What diary system do they use? How many diaries do they want to integrate with? Why do they want to integrate diary systems into an ecommerce store (I'm guessing they are selling something that has to be 'fitted')?
Do they need stock management along with ecommerce functionality? Down to what level?
What types of products do they need to sell - simple, configurable, virtual, etc?
What payment and shipping options do they have/want?
Which ecommerce platform had you envisaged using?
That being said, two things:
The crap answer would be to say how much is your day rate? If this is your first project (and that is mahoosive for a junior) then you'd be looking at no more than £100/day, average programmer would command £250/300 (dependant on which platform was used), top developers are £500/day+. You'd also want to enlist a designer, who tend to be slightly cheaper than devs. Agency prices tend to start at about £400-500/day depending on location in the UK and go into the thousands.
The good answer would be to say that there's not nearly enough of a spec there to give a good time estimate or quote.
What do you mean by mock up site?
Are pages = products? If not, how many products do they want?
Does social integration just mean Like/Tweet links everywhere or more in depth "Tweet about this order and receive a 10% off coupon".
How much traffic do you/they estimate?
What diary system do they use? How many diaries do they want to integrate with? Why do they want to integrate diary systems into an ecommerce store (I'm guessing they are selling something that has to be 'fitted')?
Do they need stock management along with ecommerce functionality? Down to what level?
What types of products do they need to sell - simple, configurable, virtual, etc?
What payment and shipping options do they have/want?
Which ecommerce platform had you envisaged using?
Hi JB
Thanks for the reply.
First off, I described it as eCommerce, its not. Its a service that they book via a Diary and pay up front.
What do you mean by mock up site? - I put together a 5 page site for them, very basic, no real functionality other than what it could look like.
Are pages = products? If not, how many products do they want? - Pages are services, Not eCommerce, sorry. It will be services which they book and pay for in a diary system.
Does social integration just mean Like/Tweet links everywhere or more in depth "Tweet about this order and receive a 10% off coupon". - It would be a more basic form to start with, I need to give a proposal at the basic format
How much traffic do you/they estimate? - Not all that heavy, 500-1000pcm
What diary system do they use? How many diaries do they want to integrate with? Why do they want to integrate diary systems into an ecommerce store (I'm guessing they are selling something that has to be 'fitted')? - It is a service that is being booked and will need to be paid for upfront. The diary system can be changed to suit the site, not discussed at great detail yet
Do they need stock management along with ecommerce functionality? Down to what level?
What types of products do they need to sell - simple, configurable, virtual, etc?
What payment and shipping options do they have/want? No real eCommerce in the foreseeable future
Which eCommerce platform had you envisaged using? Same as above
I'm saying 4 weeks because I got carried away doing a mock up that I had to strip it back before presenting to them. TBT I don't really know how long it will take, I have a good idea of the obstacles i will have to overcome but this is my first big project, its difficult to estimate
I think the only way would be too quote by the hour, I spoke to a company who made a website of similier standard (mine might be a bit better) for a company in the same industry and they charged £40k, which I think is crazy but then I'm not a big company.
I have a figure in my head but don't want to sell my self short or scare them off, The figure is less the 25% of what the other company charged.
Thanks for the reply.
First off, I described it as eCommerce, its not. Its a service that they book via a Diary and pay up front.
What do you mean by mock up site? - I put together a 5 page site for them, very basic, no real functionality other than what it could look like.
Are pages = products? If not, how many products do they want? - Pages are services, Not eCommerce, sorry. It will be services which they book and pay for in a diary system.
Does social integration just mean Like/Tweet links everywhere or more in depth "Tweet about this order and receive a 10% off coupon". - It would be a more basic form to start with, I need to give a proposal at the basic format
How much traffic do you/they estimate? - Not all that heavy, 500-1000pcm
What diary system do they use? How many diaries do they want to integrate with? Why do they want to integrate diary systems into an ecommerce store (I'm guessing they are selling something that has to be 'fitted')? - It is a service that is being booked and will need to be paid for upfront. The diary system can be changed to suit the site, not discussed at great detail yet
Do they need stock management along with ecommerce functionality? Down to what level?
What types of products do they need to sell - simple, configurable, virtual, etc?
What payment and shipping options do they have/want? No real eCommerce in the foreseeable future
Which eCommerce platform had you envisaged using? Same as above
I'm saying 4 weeks because I got carried away doing a mock up that I had to strip it back before presenting to them. TBT I don't really know how long it will take, I have a good idea of the obstacles i will have to overcome but this is my first big project, its difficult to estimate
I think the only way would be too quote by the hour, I spoke to a company who made a website of similier standard (mine might be a bit better) for a company in the same industry and they charged £40k, which I think is crazy but then I'm not a big company.
I have a figure in my head but don't want to sell my self short or scare them off, The figure is less the 25% of what the other company charged.
First rule: everyone understimates web development, including devs. Even the best coders I know still consistently underestimate timescales.
I've been doing this a long time so can be quite realistic. This menas I get the, "the client won't pay that," speech when I present my estimates but the problem is, they're usually quite accurate.
As jammy suggest, this site sounds like way more than four weeks work, even without a full brief.
What you've worked out will be a minimum on the assumption everything goes smoothly. I'd add 20% to your times for the responsive stuff (another 20% for old IE support). Have you included time for documentation and admin? Just writing a spec can take a day or two plus you'll probably want wireframes and mock ups.
For reference, we've just built something similar - a responsive e-commerce site for a big online shop - and the bespoke front end alone has come in at around 150 hours. The back end is probably going to be 50% again.
I've been doing this a long time so can be quite realistic. This menas I get the, "the client won't pay that," speech when I present my estimates but the problem is, they're usually quite accurate.
As jammy suggest, this site sounds like way more than four weeks work, even without a full brief.
What you've worked out will be a minimum on the assumption everything goes smoothly. I'd add 20% to your times for the responsive stuff (another 20% for old IE support). Have you included time for documentation and admin? Just writing a spec can take a day or two plus you'll probably want wireframes and mock ups.
For reference, we've just built something similar - a responsive e-commerce site for a big online shop - and the bespoke front end alone has come in at around 150 hours. The back end is probably going to be 50% again.
So you're not actually creating the working site. Just a mockup using something like Balsamiq? Or full on designs using Photoshop? Or maybe something hybrid like a working HTML/CSS prototype?
If it's just a mockup or prototype, for a project this large I'd be expecting to spend about 4-10 days on it, depending on complexity and requirements.
For designs, I'd expect one of my designers to take about a week. That wouldn't be designs for everything, but key pages and then producing a style guide to fill in the gaps.
Also, if you're only doing a mockup, then the technical aspects aren't quite so important. What is important is how the users will use the system, workflows, processes, etc. Remember, the whole point of a mockup is to match the system to the user's expectations, so at least half of the days I've quoted should be spent sat with users, watching them use the prototypes/mockups and quickly iterating them so they become a workable model. Minutes or hours spent getting the mockup just right can save days or weeks at development stage.
Lastly, don't sell yourself too cheap. A lot of companies will be wary of a service too cheap - you'll either have to be just starting out/crap or cutting corners to be that cheap. Neither of which will sell to the client! Don't be afraid to ask the client if they have a budget in mind.
If it's just a mockup or prototype, for a project this large I'd be expecting to spend about 4-10 days on it, depending on complexity and requirements.
For designs, I'd expect one of my designers to take about a week. That wouldn't be designs for everything, but key pages and then producing a style guide to fill in the gaps.
Also, if you're only doing a mockup, then the technical aspects aren't quite so important. What is important is how the users will use the system, workflows, processes, etc. Remember, the whole point of a mockup is to match the system to the user's expectations, so at least half of the days I've quoted should be spent sat with users, watching them use the prototypes/mockups and quickly iterating them so they become a workable model. Minutes or hours spent getting the mockup just right can save days or weeks at development stage.
Lastly, don't sell yourself too cheap. A lot of companies will be wary of a service too cheap - you'll either have to be just starting out/crap or cutting corners to be that cheap. Neither of which will sell to the client! Don't be afraid to ask the client if they have a budget in mind.
Just throwing a "customers" input - if you want to keep working with this company and you see a long term relationship then price accordingly.
My new site is being done for a very low amount on the basis we will give them a 12 month retainer to include hosting, agreed mods and fixes - works for me as ultimately we are getting a full service for a year with low up front costs.
My new site is being done for a very low amount on the basis we will give them a 12 month retainer to include hosting, agreed mods and fixes - works for me as ultimately we are getting a full service for a year with low up front costs.
And to give the other side of the coin, I've had many a client come to me and say can I do a good deal on this small initial project because there is the chance of a massive project afterwards. I find the best way to deal with this is to offer two deals. A small percentage off the first project and second big project at full price, or full price first project and small percentage off big project (which should equate to a larger overall saving). Which option they choose usually tells you the likelihood of the big project ever coming to fruition!
Obviously in DS' situation it's all worked out as it should, but it doesn't always/generally work out like that in my experience.
Obviously in DS' situation it's all worked out as it should, but it doesn't always/generally work out like that in my experience.
It will be a fully working site, the design and build I will do, obviously the client will provide a majority of the content as they have employed a content writer a social networking guru.
Thanks JB, I will ask them have they a budget in mind as there is a story behind the whole opportunity is not one that I want to lose as it will be quite life changing for the next few years (for us anyway)
I am finding the design and build so far to be the easy part, I really am struggling with what to price it as, like JB said, need to price it just so as not to undervalue my work, so much so that they don't see the value and not too pricey that they choose a big company to do it instead....
Thanks for all the advise so far guys, you never quite know how well Topics will be received on PH :P
Thanks JB, I will ask them have they a budget in mind as there is a story behind the whole opportunity is not one that I want to lose as it will be quite life changing for the next few years (for us anyway)
I am finding the design and build so far to be the easy part, I really am struggling with what to price it as, like JB said, need to price it just so as not to undervalue my work, so much so that they don't see the value and not too pricey that they choose a big company to do it instead....
Thanks for all the advise so far guys, you never quite know how well Topics will be received on PH :P
The best thing you can do is break the whole project down into small tasks and assign a time to each; setting up the FTP site might be 0.5 hours, creating an image gallery might be 4 hours etc.
Add a sensible percentage on to cover client amends, bug-fixing and cock ups and that should give you a reasonably accurate estimate and also gives you targets to work to that help keep you on track.
Add a sensible percentage on to cover client amends, bug-fixing and cock ups and that should give you a reasonably accurate estimate and also gives you targets to work to that help keep you on track.
You're almost assuming an enterprise level project there. I've had similar sized projects for companies with less than a handful of people in the whole company where getting agreement on aspects of the project has been very easy.
But it is a very good point to raise. If there are a number of people involved in the project then it can quickly become a nightmare. You can get impression of how well a project will go from the initial meetings with the client. If you think in-fighting and interference will cause problems then definitely take the quote and add a multiplier!
But it is a very good point to raise. If there are a number of people involved in the project then it can quickly become a nightmare. You can get impression of how well a project will go from the initial meetings with the client. If you think in-fighting and interference will cause problems then definitely take the quote and add a multiplier!
The most reliable way to estimate a web dev project is to take the developers estimate, double it, and bump it up a timeframe, so really your looking at 8 months!
wolfy1988 said:
employed a content writer a social networking guru.
This would ring some alarms bells for me, in my experience they'll want you to do half their job for them and you'll get the blame if you hold them up. They'll want scripts installed, meta-tags added, sitemaps created, and then just when your nearly done, they probably ask for the whole thing to be done again but "this time in wordpress as there's a plugin that will do exactly what they want, and setting up wordpress sites only takes 5 minutes". Also, if the sites good and attracts more visitors they'll take all the credit for their strategy, and if it fails that will be your fault too. cluckcluck said:
6 months or more, charge 60K+.
It may creep to a year if it gets bloated/political/lots of changes requested at last minute, charge 100K
I think, with all due respect, Wolfy has no real idea what he's doing here at all and certainly isn't at the experience level to be able to ask for (or get) £60-100k...It may creep to a year if it gets bloated/political/lots of changes requested at last minute, charge 100K
Bikerjon said:
4 weeks? I have customers who have waited months for their web designers to deliver 5 - 10 page sites!
Number of pages is often a red herring.Look how many 'pages' are in Pistonheads. But they're effectively all the same thing, with it being a template that content is put into by someone else (either Pistonheads staff, or forum members). It often won't matter whether something has 20 pages or half a million pages, as far as the designer is concerned.
jammy_basturd said:
And to give the other side of the coin, I've had many a client come to me and say can I do a good deal on this small initial project because there is the chance of a massive project afterwards. I find the best way to deal with this is to offer two deals. A small percentage off the first project and second big project at full price, or full price first project and small percentage off big project (which should equate to a larger overall saving). Which option they choose usually tells you the likelihood of the big project ever coming to fruition!
Obviously in DS' situation it's all worked out as it should, but it doesn't always/generally work out like that in my experience.
That old chestnut......any decent company won't play hardball, it's just not necessary, especially with a creative service. Obviously in DS' situation it's all worked out as it should, but it doesn't always/generally work out like that in my experience.
wolfy1988 said:
KFC said:
I think, with all due respect, Wolfy has no real idea what he's doing here at all and certainly isn't at the experience level to be able to ask for (or get) £60-100k...
Ouch!Of course, I'm not even dreaming of anything near that!
Thanks anyway
given you have absolutely no idea how long it will take (and it will take 3 times longer than you say, then they will come back with loads of cr4p for you to fix which will be an endless list etc)
you ALMOST CERTAINLY need to give them an hourly rate. It is so much safer. If you don't then you will need a water tight contract with them with clauses about rework, additional support etc. it's horrendous.
Hourly any time you can.
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