Advice on how to respond to a NIP please
Discussion
Read the article last week on PH about the statistical probability of everyone getting a speeding ticket every couple of years or so and then what happens? Woke up on Saturday morning and found a NIP on the floor. First in over 30 years of accident free motoring.
Details are 37MPH in a 30MPH area 19:15 Thursday 9 Dec Oxford Road in Kiddlington.
This is not a road I drive all that often but the only camera on that road I am aware of is in a 40MPH zone, hence my speed of 37. I have been back since and can find no sign of any other cameras, there is a short section of the road that is 30MPH.
So I need a little advice on the following
1 Before signing and returning the NIP can I request a copy of the photographic evidence and details of exactly where on Oxford Road the alleged offence took place.
2 If it was in the 30 zone then it must have been from some sort of hidden / mobile camera. If it was in the 40 zone what would be the best way to prove that the NIP is wrong?
As you can imagine I was pretty annoyed. Was I driving unsafely? I dont think so and 30+ years of accident free motoring seems to back this up.
Will it change the way I drive? Potentially, I will now spend more time looking at my speedo and searching for cameras rather than trying to read the road and surrounding conditions.
Thanks in advance for any advice
Details are 37MPH in a 30MPH area 19:15 Thursday 9 Dec Oxford Road in Kiddlington.
This is not a road I drive all that often but the only camera on that road I am aware of is in a 40MPH zone, hence my speed of 37. I have been back since and can find no sign of any other cameras, there is a short section of the road that is 30MPH.
So I need a little advice on the following
1 Before signing and returning the NIP can I request a copy of the photographic evidence and details of exactly where on Oxford Road the alleged offence took place.
2 If it was in the 30 zone then it must have been from some sort of hidden / mobile camera. If it was in the 40 zone what would be the best way to prove that the NIP is wrong?
As you can imagine I was pretty annoyed. Was I driving unsafely? I dont think so and 30+ years of accident free motoring seems to back this up.
Will it change the way I drive? Potentially, I will now spend more time looking at my speedo and searching for cameras rather than trying to read the road and surrounding conditions.
Thanks in advance for any advice
join the club!
doesn't it make you sick?.
I would never put my hands up to anything unless I could see all the evidence.
Ask them for it. Recorded delivery so you know they've got the letter.
They'll probably say you can't see it (advanced disclosure). Explain that you want to get this resolved quickly, but you won't incriminate yourself and therefore will have to take it to court explaining the reasons.
They'll let you see the evidence - if there is any.
doesn't it make you sick?.
I would never put my hands up to anything unless I could see all the evidence.
Ask them for it. Recorded delivery so you know they've got the letter.
They'll probably say you can't see it (advanced disclosure). Explain that you want to get this resolved quickly, but you won't incriminate yourself and therefore will have to take it to court explaining the reasons.
They'll let you see the evidence - if there is any.
Get yourself over to www.pepipoo.com/NewForums2/index.php for some expert advice on how to evade the charge.
DeMolay said:
Get yourself over to www.pepipoo.com/NewForums2/index.php for some expert advice on how to evade the charge.
look at the Judicial Process Forum, that'll tell you all you need to know.
Yes. Mrs. XXPLOD got an NIP a week ago. 70 mph on the A303 westbound at Willoughby Hedge. Not sure if this is single or dual carriageway, if it was dual it must have been marked as a 60mph.
As you all know, I'm a Police Officer. And quite frankly I think this is disgusting. It cannot be that dangerous a road, else it would surely not be a 60mph limit. How the public interest is served by prosecuting for this kind of minor indescretion is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, 40 in a 30, you pretty much deserve the points, but 10 mph over in a 60!
Anyway, I called the "Safety Camera Partnership" office in Chippenham to request the photographic evidence. They were most helpful, saying they'd post it first class the same day.
It may not come to much, but it will at least cost them time and money to send it. Which given that their key objective is to make money, will annoy them. My advice - everyone ask for the evidence - it will hit their coffers.
I've spoken at length with my forces Revenue Partnership, and I know exactly what their paramenters are for pursuing "non-responders" to NIPs. I tell you, if I ever get done, I will put my action plan in place to scupper any future NIPs. Believe me, it can be done.
As you all know, I'm a Police Officer. And quite frankly I think this is disgusting. It cannot be that dangerous a road, else it would surely not be a 60mph limit. How the public interest is served by prosecuting for this kind of minor indescretion is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, 40 in a 30, you pretty much deserve the points, but 10 mph over in a 60!
Anyway, I called the "Safety Camera Partnership" office in Chippenham to request the photographic evidence. They were most helpful, saying they'd post it first class the same day.
It may not come to much, but it will at least cost them time and money to send it. Which given that their key objective is to make money, will annoy them. My advice - everyone ask for the evidence - it will hit their coffers.
I've spoken at length with my forces Revenue Partnership, and I know exactly what their paramenters are for pursuing "non-responders" to NIPs. I tell you, if I ever get done, I will put my action plan in place to scupper any future NIPs. Believe me, it can be done.
xxplod said:
Yes. Mrs. XXPLOD got an NIP a week ago. 70 mph on the A303 westbound at Willoughby Hedge. Not sure if this is single or dual carriageway, if it was dual it must have been marked as a 60mph.
As you all know, I'm a Police Officer. And quite frankly I think this is disgusting. It cannot be that dangerous a road, else it would surely not be a 60mph limit. How the public interest is served by prosecuting for this kind of minor indescretion is beyond me. Don't get me wrong, 40 in a 30, you pretty much deserve the points, but 10 mph over in a 60!
Anyway, I called the "Safety Camera Partnership" office in Chippenham to request the photographic evidence. They were most helpful, saying they'd post it first class the same day.
It may not come to much, but it will at least cost them time and money to send it. Which given that their key objective is to make money, will annoy them. My advice - everyone ask for the evidence - it will hit their coffers.
I've spoken at length with my forces Revenue Partnership, and I know exactly what their paramenters are for pursuing "non-responders" to NIPs. I tell you, if I ever get done, I will put my action plan in place to scupper any future NIPs. Believe me, it can be done.
The A303 contains a number of single carriage ways with 2 lanes. I got done for 70 in a 60 on one of these. Not happy.
She wasn't driving a Merc by any chance, as I saw one flashed overtaking me on the A303 last week. I was doing 59 where the single lane becomes 2 after the Esso garage, a Merc overtook at what appeared to be slightly faster and got pinged?
My NIP (Failing to Furnish) will be celebrating it's second birthday in March. They still haven't prosecuted it fully. Well, they did but I got it overturned 
Last hearing was to get the matter re-opened and I was successful so I got my fine squashed and my license cleaned
When it finally goes to trial (if ever) I shall question the primary evidence, not to mention that THEY assumed I completed the non signed NIP. That ought to upset them.
Boosted.
Last hearing was to get the matter re-opened and I was successful so I got my fine squashed and my license cleaned When it finally goes to trial (if ever) I shall question the primary evidence, not to mention that THEY assumed I completed the non signed NIP. That ought to upset them.
Boosted.
xxplod said:
I've spoken at length with my forces Revenue Partnership, and I know exactly what their paramenters are for pursuing "non-responders" to NIPs. I tell you, if I ever get done, I will put my action plan in place to scupper any future NIPs. Believe me, it can be done.
PLEASE don't take this the wrong way but I hope you get done very soon!!!
xxplod said:
I've spoken at length with my forces Revenue Partnership, and I know exactly what their paramenters are for pursuing "non-responders" to NIPs. I tell you, if I ever get done, I will put my action plan in place to scupper any future NIPs. Believe me, it can be done.
Come on then chap, spill the beans
I'm making them work really hard Boosted.
Well, OK. A few snippets. Read into them what you will, and draw any conclusions you wish. I should point out, that adopting such tactics is tedious and almost certainly inconvenient. They really only have to be put in place until your licence is no longer at such risk,. e.g. when you're no longer on 9+ points!
Firstly, the Safety Camera Partnerships do not have any investigators. They are "armchair detectives" so in a nutshell if it can't be achieved from within their office, it mostly won't be done. The whole structure of their administrative process works on the basis that motorists obey the law, register their cars to their home address and return their NIPs. Example: vehicle pinged and NIP sent to R/O. No response received. Conceivably, if it is within their own force area, they may try to get a PC to knock the door. But if it is e.g. a London address, more than likely they won't bother (the Met wouldn't go round even if they were asked) and the ticket will be binned as not worth the buggerance trying to pursue.
So, if you registered your car in a false name to a mate's address in London/wherever with your mate under instrution to deny any knowledge of your car or ever having received a V5??
Insurance: if thinking of the above - you need to box a bit more clever. PNC now contains insurance data. It will give details of the company, policyholder and any named drivers. So a simple check on the cars VRM could ultimately, once the approriate data protection forms are sent, give the SCP your name and address to send an NIP to. The way around this, is purchase a motortraders policy, which covers you to drive any vehicle, rather than the usual vehicle specific policy. This will cost money, but the differential over and above the cost of your standard policy is not that great.
ANPR: If a car hasn't insurance showing on it, it may ping on an ANPR stop. No real problem, just carry your D/L and Traders policy certificate in the event your are stopped, or take an HO/RT 1.
If your are racking up more than one NIP in the same car, it is likely that it will have an "information marker" placed on PNC. It will probably ask for driver details to be obtained and forwarded to the relevant SCP. No real panic. You've just bought the car from the proverbial bloke in the pub for cash. You've sent off for the V5. I expect bloke in the pub bought it from Mr. Ficticious who your mate in London (who you don't know) has never heard of.
There are also jolly helpful companies around who provide mail boxes and mail forwarding services. I have spent may happy weeks in a previous occupation trying to tie people to cars. You register the car to a ficticious company at a mailbox address. Find the "right" mailbox company and you'll find that Mr. D Duck and Mr. M Mouse feature regularly in their client details. Of course, they don't do any checks on their clients, and they don't have any CCTV. The only instructon you leave them is to call a mobile number (pay as you go - no subscriber details, naturally) when you get correspondence. The really good criminals would then just pay a taxi-driver or courier to collect the mail.
Incidentally, when you buy your VEL, don't be daft enough to pay with a cheque or card, always nice untraceable cash, and always go to a small Post Office that won't have CCTV. Wouldn't want some retired Trafpol boosting his pension by working for a SCP thinking he'll get on to Post Office Investigations to trace the VEL and find out how it was purchased.
I appreciate this is approaching the "chav-culture" we all despise. But, the sad fact is these kind of tactics work. Any guilt of any offence has to be proved beyond all reasonable doubt. The proof of speed may not be in doubt, but if the SCP can't prove who the driver was - job lost. If they can never identify anyone to serve the NIP on and it becomes clear that they are on a wild goose chase, the job is written off. My force write off hundreds of cases like these every year. As I said, they don't have investigators and it is just not worth the time to try and pursue the matter. Mounting surveillance on cars/houses/people for a few NIPs is just not going to happen.
Chavs drive with baseball caps on, in cars with tinted windows which they change every 6 months for good reason. They know we have neither the means nor will to go to the Nth degree to try and catch them.
If you're on 9 points, and you need your licence for your job, mortgage, marriage, life etc... put your P&J in the garage and buy a disposable car to run about in until 3 points have dropped off.
Firstly, the Safety Camera Partnerships do not have any investigators. They are "armchair detectives" so in a nutshell if it can't be achieved from within their office, it mostly won't be done. The whole structure of their administrative process works on the basis that motorists obey the law, register their cars to their home address and return their NIPs. Example: vehicle pinged and NIP sent to R/O. No response received. Conceivably, if it is within their own force area, they may try to get a PC to knock the door. But if it is e.g. a London address, more than likely they won't bother (the Met wouldn't go round even if they were asked) and the ticket will be binned as not worth the buggerance trying to pursue.
So, if you registered your car in a false name to a mate's address in London/wherever with your mate under instrution to deny any knowledge of your car or ever having received a V5??
Insurance: if thinking of the above - you need to box a bit more clever. PNC now contains insurance data. It will give details of the company, policyholder and any named drivers. So a simple check on the cars VRM could ultimately, once the approriate data protection forms are sent, give the SCP your name and address to send an NIP to. The way around this, is purchase a motortraders policy, which covers you to drive any vehicle, rather than the usual vehicle specific policy. This will cost money, but the differential over and above the cost of your standard policy is not that great.
ANPR: If a car hasn't insurance showing on it, it may ping on an ANPR stop. No real problem, just carry your D/L and Traders policy certificate in the event your are stopped, or take an HO/RT 1.
If your are racking up more than one NIP in the same car, it is likely that it will have an "information marker" placed on PNC. It will probably ask for driver details to be obtained and forwarded to the relevant SCP. No real panic. You've just bought the car from the proverbial bloke in the pub for cash. You've sent off for the V5. I expect bloke in the pub bought it from Mr. Ficticious who your mate in London (who you don't know) has never heard of.
There are also jolly helpful companies around who provide mail boxes and mail forwarding services. I have spent may happy weeks in a previous occupation trying to tie people to cars. You register the car to a ficticious company at a mailbox address. Find the "right" mailbox company and you'll find that Mr. D Duck and Mr. M Mouse feature regularly in their client details. Of course, they don't do any checks on their clients, and they don't have any CCTV. The only instructon you leave them is to call a mobile number (pay as you go - no subscriber details, naturally) when you get correspondence. The really good criminals would then just pay a taxi-driver or courier to collect the mail.
Incidentally, when you buy your VEL, don't be daft enough to pay with a cheque or card, always nice untraceable cash, and always go to a small Post Office that won't have CCTV. Wouldn't want some retired Trafpol boosting his pension by working for a SCP thinking he'll get on to Post Office Investigations to trace the VEL and find out how it was purchased.
I appreciate this is approaching the "chav-culture" we all despise. But, the sad fact is these kind of tactics work. Any guilt of any offence has to be proved beyond all reasonable doubt. The proof of speed may not be in doubt, but if the SCP can't prove who the driver was - job lost. If they can never identify anyone to serve the NIP on and it becomes clear that they are on a wild goose chase, the job is written off. My force write off hundreds of cases like these every year. As I said, they don't have investigators and it is just not worth the time to try and pursue the matter. Mounting surveillance on cars/houses/people for a few NIPs is just not going to happen.
Chavs drive with baseball caps on, in cars with tinted windows which they change every 6 months for good reason. They know we have neither the means nor will to go to the Nth degree to try and catch them.
If you're on 9 points, and you need your licence for your job, mortgage, marriage, life etc... put your P&J in the garage and buy a disposable car to run about in until 3 points have dropped off.
Well, that's an eye opener. So that's how they get away with it! Me, I'm just being really difficult and I reckon I can win it and if I do I shall ask the prosecution how many other customers have been convicted on the basis of dodgy primary evidence. I'm looking forward to it.
boosted.
boosted.
shagga said:
Read the article last week on PH about the statistical probability of everyone getting a speeding ticket every couple of years or so and then what happens? Woke up on Saturday morning and found a NIP on the floor. First in over 30 years of accident free motoring.
Details are 37MPH in a 30MPH area 19:15 Thursday 9 Dec Oxford Road in Kiddlington.
This is not a road I drive all that often but the only camera on that road I am aware of is in a 40MPH zone, hence my speed of 37. I have been back since and can find no sign of any other cameras, there is a short section of the road that is 30MPH.
So I need a little advice on the following
1 Before signing and returning the NIP can I request a copy of the photographic evidence and details of exactly where on Oxford Road the alleged offence took place.
2 If it was in the 30 zone then it must have been from some sort of hidden / mobile camera. If it was in the 40 zone what would be the best way to prove that the NIP is wrong?
As you can imagine I was pretty annoyed. Was I driving unsafely? I dont think so and 30+ years of accident free motoring seems to back this up.
Will it change the way I drive? Potentially, I will now spend more time looking at my speedo and searching for cameras rather than trying to read the road and surrounding conditions.
Thanks in advance for any advice
Bin it my friend, bin it
Three years ago my son was 'pinged' at 00-30 hours through some road works on the A43 near Silverstone. His speed - 49 in a 40.
At the time my son was using an Alfa 156 registered to my company.
The NIP arrived and our Co. Sec'y gave his name and address which was a flat in London.
When the NIP arrived he ignored it compl;etely. He then ignored the follow up and went off to work inFrance for 6 months around that time, relinquishing his flat rental.
He still has the same car. We, the registered keeper, never heard any more. Apparently some more letters were sent to his flat, but returned as 'gone away'. It is believed that no police officer ever turned up on the doorstep.
Thus, the advice to register your car to a small limited company (cost of company £150) with an accommodation address and a third party management firm as co. sec'y, seems to be good. Make sure the company have insured the car.
In the extreme case, you simply liquidate the limited company, hand all records to the liquidating accountants and refer the CPS to the accountants who, you say, may have the information, but as a former director of a now-defunct company, the company records are not and cannot be in your possession.
I would be most grateful for mr. xxplod's comments on this.
At the time my son was using an Alfa 156 registered to my company.
The NIP arrived and our Co. Sec'y gave his name and address which was a flat in London.
When the NIP arrived he ignored it compl;etely. He then ignored the follow up and went off to work inFrance for 6 months around that time, relinquishing his flat rental.
He still has the same car. We, the registered keeper, never heard any more. Apparently some more letters were sent to his flat, but returned as 'gone away'. It is believed that no police officer ever turned up on the doorstep.
Thus, the advice to register your car to a small limited company (cost of company £150) with an accommodation address and a third party management firm as co. sec'y, seems to be good. Make sure the company have insured the car.
In the extreme case, you simply liquidate the limited company, hand all records to the liquidating accountants and refer the CPS to the accountants who, you say, may have the information, but as a former director of a now-defunct company, the company records are not and cannot be in your possession.
I would be most grateful for mr. xxplod's comments on this.
Cooperman - I'm not surprised your son had this result. As I said, it all boils down to money. Say a SCP processes 1000 FPNs a week inluding the fixed sites, vans, the lot. They have targets like anyone else. I don't know what they are, it could be to achieve a 95% success rate in pulling in the cash. They don't have investigators, and all the bods in the office have their workloads. It is simply not worth the organisations while to allow an employee to spend hours and hours trying to chase just one ticket. And there is no budget to do anything further, e.g. send people snooping around homes, business addresses etc... Chances are, if they are on target, and therefore are not getting grief to up their performance, once the required administrative boxes have been ticked, then the job is binned.
As for any further action, I think there has to be more than the odd ticket to merit an information marker on PNC, and hence the ANPR implications. Such actions would only be taken where a car was racking up offence after offence.
In terms of the Limited Company. Save the £150. It doesn't HAVE to be a "bonafide" limited company. "BLOGGS TRADING" will do. Companies house will allow the company secretary to be a business providing that service, but you still need the name and address for a director. Why bother with the rigmarole? You've then got a decision as to whether you lie to companies house as well.
It's sad really. My biggest gripe with the SCPs is that they catch the law abiding. I don't want a debate on whether people who speed are law abiding, by that I mean those who register their cars properly, fill in thier NIPs and pay their fines.
The scrotes, driving pool cars, with no licence or insurance driving dangerously drive past cameras with impunity because they know the system and they just how flawed it is. Durham Police have the right approach. No speed cameras, a decent traffic department, and surprise surprise one the best records for reducing death and injury on their roads compared to other forces accross the country.
As for any further action, I think there has to be more than the odd ticket to merit an information marker on PNC, and hence the ANPR implications. Such actions would only be taken where a car was racking up offence after offence.
In terms of the Limited Company. Save the £150. It doesn't HAVE to be a "bonafide" limited company. "BLOGGS TRADING" will do. Companies house will allow the company secretary to be a business providing that service, but you still need the name and address for a director. Why bother with the rigmarole? You've then got a decision as to whether you lie to companies house as well.
It's sad really. My biggest gripe with the SCPs is that they catch the law abiding. I don't want a debate on whether people who speed are law abiding, by that I mean those who register their cars properly, fill in thier NIPs and pay their fines.
The scrotes, driving pool cars, with no licence or insurance driving dangerously drive past cameras with impunity because they know the system and they just how flawed it is. Durham Police have the right approach. No speed cameras, a decent traffic department, and surprise surprise one the best records for reducing death and injury on their roads compared to other forces accross the country.
@ Xxplod!!! 
- as you say its all about the money. 
over this money maker still 
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