General garages - how do they know how to fix so many cars?
Discussion
I've always taken my car to marque specialists and am impressed with their intricate detailed knowledge of the machines, their problems and solutions. I'm now looking at getting a station car and little runabout for my wife, must have auto, leather, xenons and under £2k. Have narrowed it down to a Golf V5 170BHP or a Jag S-Type. Don't laugh I'm a petrolhead.
If I just take this to a basic garage how do they know all the foibles / secrets / details etc for these models, given that they deal with so many cars? Or are they generally OK for standard servicing but then for troubleshooting & fixing more complex faults, not as good? Obviously at this level I need somewhere good & cheap or the car is effectively written off by a big repair bill
If I just take this to a basic garage how do they know all the foibles / secrets / details etc for these models, given that they deal with so many cars? Or are they generally OK for standard servicing but then for troubleshooting & fixing more complex faults, not as good? Obviously at this level I need somewhere good & cheap or the car is effectively written off by a big repair bill
I have been using my local small garage for years. Basic servicing is pretty much the same on any car. They have a very expensive set of diagnostic computers to help diagnose issues. They also have access to manufacturers technical helplines if they get stuck.
They know their limits and dont touch exotics and on my TVR will do some basic work but otherwise it goes to a specialist.
They know their limits and dont touch exotics and on my TVR will do some basic work but otherwise it goes to a specialist.
Working in one it is a combination of;
Experience - most systems are fairly similar in design and after a while you know what they should/shouldn't be doing
Internet - Sometimes the biggest help and sometimes completely useless
Bought Tech data - i.e Autodata etc, this can be useful but tbh isn't worth the amount they charge for it.
The biggest stumbling block I come across when diagnosing stuff is lack of technical information (which if available costs more than it is worth in work). Fords are a reasonable example, a common enough marque but Autodata etc has no wiring diagrams for anything other than the Air Con system which makes it virtually impossible to trace odd engine electrical faults.
I could do it but the amount of time it would take to trace all the wiring around would cost the customer so much they might as well just take it to Ford or a specialist so off they go
Another issue is test equipement, I have my own oscilliscope and the garage has an up to date scanner but the scanner is mostly useless with out the tech data to back it up (a list of data values is lovely if you know what they should be!).
At the end of the day, what you want is a garage that can hold their hands up and say they can't diagnose the issue because they don't have the required information to do it. We do our best to fix things first time and cheaply for our customers but sometimes it is apparent early on that it is out of our capabilities so needs to go elsewhere and the customer gets told that as early as possible.
Experience - most systems are fairly similar in design and after a while you know what they should/shouldn't be doing
Internet - Sometimes the biggest help and sometimes completely useless
Bought Tech data - i.e Autodata etc, this can be useful but tbh isn't worth the amount they charge for it.
The biggest stumbling block I come across when diagnosing stuff is lack of technical information (which if available costs more than it is worth in work). Fords are a reasonable example, a common enough marque but Autodata etc has no wiring diagrams for anything other than the Air Con system which makes it virtually impossible to trace odd engine electrical faults.
I could do it but the amount of time it would take to trace all the wiring around would cost the customer so much they might as well just take it to Ford or a specialist so off they go
Another issue is test equipement, I have my own oscilliscope and the garage has an up to date scanner but the scanner is mostly useless with out the tech data to back it up (a list of data values is lovely if you know what they should be!).
At the end of the day, what you want is a garage that can hold their hands up and say they can't diagnose the issue because they don't have the required information to do it. We do our best to fix things first time and cheaply for our customers but sometimes it is apparent early on that it is out of our capabilities so needs to go elsewhere and the customer gets told that as early as possible.
Edited by Jimmyarm on Wednesday 29th October 08:37
You need to look at the individual garage and speak with the people involved. In the past all cars were so basic that even high end ones were easy to fix for most as they still had a carb plugs points etc. When the Triumph injection came out the howls from some then were loud and the trade was doomed. It wasn't and it adapted to change.
So fast forward now and for general servicing work any decent garage will be able to do it, so long as they have a decent understanding. For none service work in the main they use a fault code reader to interrogate the system and this is where it starts to go wrong for many. If the code says lambda sensor fault, most just bang one in without finding out why it failed, usually because something before it is wrong. A specialist will know what to look for through experience of that model, but if you have a good independent they should find that just the same.
Look for investment in tools and buildings, if they treat their own business with a lack of care, will they do the same to your car. A good starting point is one of the good garage type schemes where they get customer feedback to keep their standing
In many dealers you would be shocked at who actually works on your car, not all are high flying technicians
So fast forward now and for general servicing work any decent garage will be able to do it, so long as they have a decent understanding. For none service work in the main they use a fault code reader to interrogate the system and this is where it starts to go wrong for many. If the code says lambda sensor fault, most just bang one in without finding out why it failed, usually because something before it is wrong. A specialist will know what to look for through experience of that model, but if you have a good independent they should find that just the same.
Look for investment in tools and buildings, if they treat their own business with a lack of care, will they do the same to your car. A good starting point is one of the good garage type schemes where they get customer feedback to keep their standing
In many dealers you would be shocked at who actually works on your car, not all are high flying technicians
Internet, Data Manuals and advice from others in the business ( we are all friendly with each other).
A long built up past experience is the biggest part though. Just last Saturday i made a small job into a big job for myself due to being unfamiliar with SXI intake manifolds. Obviously i only charged for it being a small job and taken the hit this time around, however i now know for next time.
A long built up past experience is the biggest part though. Just last Saturday i made a small job into a big job for myself due to being unfamiliar with SXI intake manifolds. Obviously i only charged for it being a small job and taken the hit this time around, however i now know for next time.
Plus, a lot of parts are common between cars, a VW PD engine does service in numerous different vehicles, Ford suspension and brakes are the same across a lot of models.
Servicing is generally easy on pretty much any car, a decetn mechanic will have a mental encyclopaedia to call on, where it gets tricky is when someone brings in a 911 cabrio with a hood stuck half way up or the Maserati with an intermittent running issue.
Most garages just swap modules really, with say a gearbox issues, they will defer to a specialist if they need to get it repaired, guess its like a GP vs a specialist in the medical world.
Servicing is generally easy on pretty much any car, a decetn mechanic will have a mental encyclopaedia to call on, where it gets tricky is when someone brings in a 911 cabrio with a hood stuck half way up or the Maserati with an intermittent running issue.
Most garages just swap modules really, with say a gearbox issues, they will defer to a specialist if they need to get it repaired, guess its like a GP vs a specialist in the medical world.
A lot of stuff really isn't complicated or difficult and is more or less the same on most cars. Replacing shock absorbers, springs, suspension arms, exhausts etc isn't rocket science and is more or less the same on most mainstream cars. Similarly servicing is rarely that complicated. My local independent garage is more than capable of doing all that (though I usually do it myself). They will refuse work or give an enormous quote for things they are not confident about though like replacing the big end bearings on my Landcruiser (which I did myself and it turned out to be easy).
It all seems sensible to me, use general garages for general work and specialists for specialist work.
It all seems sensible to me, use general garages for general work and specialists for specialist work.
I use an independent that specialises in VW/Audi only. The lead mechanic and service manager are VAG group trained with the bonus of their labour charge being half what Audi would rape me for. If you do a bit if research most Indies have someone ex main dealer, it's just finding one for your chosen marque.
spaximus said:
If the code says lambda sensor fault, most just bang one in without finding out why it failed, usually because something before it is wrong. A specialist will know what to look for through experience of that model, but if you have a good independent they should find that just the same.
I generally research any issue on the internet then go in armed with that info. The small garage I go to know that I am a bit of an expert on the specific cars I drive and trust my research.Where it goes wrong is with main dealers. My Jag had exactly the problem above, lambda fault code. My research led me to think the supercharger rubber seals had failed and when I took a look sure enough they were both leaking. Only a few quid for the part and maybe 30 minutes labour to change. Under warranty the dealer insisted I was wrong as they were the 'experts' so they changed the labmda sensor. It coded again within 2 days. So they changed it again. Didnt fix it. Then they changed the catalytic converter. Guess what ? Still throwing the code. Then I insisted they change the seals under warranty and the problems stopped. Cost the warranty company £2k+ for a fix that should have cost no more than £150.
So I would much rather use a small garage who I can talk to about the problems than a big garage who know better.
Also some highly respected independent specialists are rubbish. I used one VW specialist on recommendation from several forums and their 'engineer' who looked at my VW golf couldnt tell the difference between coolant and oil when trying to diagnose a leak and didnt know ANY of the common known issues on the car that I would expect a VW specialist to know.
Edited by Dodsy on Wednesday 29th October 11:02
Dodsy said:
I generally research any issue on the internet then go in armed with that info. The small garage I go to know that I am a bit of an expert on the specific cars I drive and trust my research.
Where it goes wrong is with main dealers. My Jag had exactly the problem above, lambda fault code. My research led me to think the supercharger rubber seals had failed and when I took a look sure enough they were both leaking. Only a few quid for the part and maybe 30 minutes labour to change. Under warranty the dealer insisted I was wrong as they were the 'experts' so they changed the labmda sensor. It coded again within 2 days. So they changed it again. Didnt fix it. Then they changed the catalytic converter. Guess what ? Still throwing the code. Then I insisted they change the seals under warranty and the problems stopped. Cost the warranty company £2k+ for a fix that should have cost no more than £150.
So I would much rather use a small garage who I can talk to about the problems than a big garage who know better.
This. In spades. Before a recent job move I had a great little garage just around the corner. They had competent mechanics who were purely time-served and not main dealer trained etcWhere it goes wrong is with main dealers. My Jag had exactly the problem above, lambda fault code. My research led me to think the supercharger rubber seals had failed and when I took a look sure enough they were both leaking. Only a few quid for the part and maybe 30 minutes labour to change. Under warranty the dealer insisted I was wrong as they were the 'experts' so they changed the labmda sensor. It coded again within 2 days. So they changed it again. Didnt fix it. Then they changed the catalytic converter. Guess what ? Still throwing the code. Then I insisted they change the seals under warranty and the problems stopped. Cost the warranty company £2k+ for a fix that should have cost no more than £150.
So I would much rather use a small garage who I can talk to about the problems than a big garage who know better.
They knew when and when not to take on work. They'd do any of the stuff I couldn't do or didn't have time for and above all the respected that I was the kind of guy who got his hands dirty and researched issues before I gt there. Most of the time I have them a specific job to do after my research, in the understanding that if it didn't fix it, then it was my problem as I asked for a specific job.
Occasionally the garage owner would put me right and tell me I had mis diagnosed as he had seen this issue before and knew the fix. Occasionally he would ask me about other issues on my marque that he had not seen before but maybe I had?!
Once he diagnosed a faulty steering rack on my bmw, he could have taken the job on at near enough a 4 figure sum, but he refused saying it seemed difficult and really needed a specialist. He extended my free re test period for the mot to incorporate the fact I had to go elsewhere.
I think it helped I always settled my bill, no questions asked and in cash.
I really miss that garage, it's over 50 miles away so never get any work done there. Wish I had the same/ similar near home.
I'd say a mixture of experience, diagnostic equipment and process of elimination.
Also, a few years ago, I bought a CD-ROMA from Ebay which had instructions/times etc for carrying most repairs to most cars, can't remember the exact name of it but if I was a garage owner I'd have the most up to date version of that for sure.
Also, a few years ago, I bought a CD-ROMA from Ebay which had instructions/times etc for carrying most repairs to most cars, can't remember the exact name of it but if I was a garage owner I'd have the most up to date version of that for sure.
We use a local general garage.
He has been going for years, place is spotless,not three inches of oil and grease like some I have seen.
They collect our cars,diagnose,phone us with problem,price,and time to repair, they then deliver the vehicle back to us, we post a cheque for the bill.
His equipment and knowledge seems to be wide,however, if he is stuck, very rarely, he advises to seek main dealer help..
Our experience with main dealers though,is ''computer says no'' type syndrome.
If the diagnostic says nothing wrong, that seems the end of their ability to solve a problem.
He has been going for years, place is spotless,not three inches of oil and grease like some I have seen.
They collect our cars,diagnose,phone us with problem,price,and time to repair, they then deliver the vehicle back to us, we post a cheque for the bill.
His equipment and knowledge seems to be wide,however, if he is stuck, very rarely, he advises to seek main dealer help..
Our experience with main dealers though,is ''computer says no'' type syndrome.
If the diagnostic says nothing wrong, that seems the end of their ability to solve a problem.
As in all walks of life there are good 'uns and bad un's and I've seen my fill of both. IME the good 'uns always have an owner who is still the main mechanic and has been around the buoy a few times, ergo they will be the wrong side of 50 and grew up having to diagnose problems without specialist equipment. Having said that the good 'uns also have good diagnostic equipment and use it sensibly i.e. they use it to confirm diagnosis and don't just believe blindly what the 'box of tricks' tells them.
As stated previously all garages have access to manufacturer's specific fault codes and the old lags invariably have a network of knowledgeable people they can call upon. Again, as stated previously, the basics of all vehicles have not changed that much over the years, the main differences being in ignition and engine control units but a lot of these are not repairable and have to be replaced. This is where the experience and the diagnostic kit comes in so as not to just expensively work their way around the vehicle until they stumble across the fix. They will check the three basics first - fuel, air and spark.
As for common faults, most have seen them several times before or will recognise symptoms due to common faults on other makes of cars. General servicing on mainstream make vehicles is almost totally common across all vehicles so is not a problem save for very rare species.
All my cars go to the local garage except for the F355 which, being a relatively rare beast and pre-dates OBD ports necessitating bespoke diagnostic equipment, goes to a specialist Indy.
As stated previously all garages have access to manufacturer's specific fault codes and the old lags invariably have a network of knowledgeable people they can call upon. Again, as stated previously, the basics of all vehicles have not changed that much over the years, the main differences being in ignition and engine control units but a lot of these are not repairable and have to be replaced. This is where the experience and the diagnostic kit comes in so as not to just expensively work their way around the vehicle until they stumble across the fix. They will check the three basics first - fuel, air and spark.
As for common faults, most have seen them several times before or will recognise symptoms due to common faults on other makes of cars. General servicing on mainstream make vehicles is almost totally common across all vehicles so is not a problem save for very rare species.
All my cars go to the local garage except for the F355 which, being a relatively rare beast and pre-dates OBD ports necessitating bespoke diagnostic equipment, goes to a specialist Indy.
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