Accident witness
Discussion
Morning all
Was unfortunate enough to witness an accident last night, 30 mph limit in town centre, saw, in my rear view mirror, an Astra Van travelling the opposite direction to me proceed to overtake the car in front of him (well above the limit) and then a few seconds later two sets of hazards come on further down the road
It was a dark but street lighted section of road, decided to turn back as I thought he could have hit a pedestrian at the crossing point, and find the Van with it's front caved in, and a small red car (think Kia Picanto or similar 3dr vehicle) with an impact to the rear, the red car had pulled out from a junction and the van had ploughed into the back of him
Got out, the van driver turned out to be a young chap, late teens, who was driving his Dad's work van, he was pretty well in shock, didn't really know what to do so I let him call his Dad on my phone, lent him pen/paper to write down details etc, while I chat to the other driver - he's in pain, lots of it, so Paramedic called, he arrives, ambulance called and then the police arrive etc etc, I left my details with the police and my card with the drivers and got home to the wife...
Anyway, the red car made it all of 10 metres from the junction before the impact, so it couldn't have been going that fast, but the impact set off both front airbags in the Astra, and bend the chassis of the red car to the point that when the paramedic opened the passenger door to look at the seat (which had reclined backwards) it wouldn't close again.
So, in the spirit of armchair lawyering and internet detectivism, how fast do we think the Astra was going and who do we think was to blame for the collision?
As a NB, the car that he overtook would have watched the accident happen less than 100m in front of them, and they didn't stop
Was unfortunate enough to witness an accident last night, 30 mph limit in town centre, saw, in my rear view mirror, an Astra Van travelling the opposite direction to me proceed to overtake the car in front of him (well above the limit) and then a few seconds later two sets of hazards come on further down the road
It was a dark but street lighted section of road, decided to turn back as I thought he could have hit a pedestrian at the crossing point, and find the Van with it's front caved in, and a small red car (think Kia Picanto or similar 3dr vehicle) with an impact to the rear, the red car had pulled out from a junction and the van had ploughed into the back of him
Got out, the van driver turned out to be a young chap, late teens, who was driving his Dad's work van, he was pretty well in shock, didn't really know what to do so I let him call his Dad on my phone, lent him pen/paper to write down details etc, while I chat to the other driver - he's in pain, lots of it, so Paramedic called, he arrives, ambulance called and then the police arrive etc etc, I left my details with the police and my card with the drivers and got home to the wife...
Anyway, the red car made it all of 10 metres from the junction before the impact, so it couldn't have been going that fast, but the impact set off both front airbags in the Astra, and bend the chassis of the red car to the point that when the paramedic opened the passenger door to look at the seat (which had reclined backwards) it wouldn't close again.
So, in the spirit of armchair lawyering and internet detectivism, how fast do we think the Astra was going and who do we think was to blame for the collision?
As a NB, the car that he overtook would have watched the accident happen less than 100m in front of them, and they didn't stop
the_lone_wolf said:
Anyway, the red car made it all of 10 metres from the junction before the impact...
Did it? Or was it shunted 10 metres from the junction by the impact?the_lone_wolf said:
As a NB, the car that he overtook would have watched the accident happen less than 100m in front of them, and they didn't stop
s.Centurion07 said:
the_lone_wolf said:
Anyway, the red car made it all of 10 metres from the junction before the impact...
Did it? Or was it shunted 10 metres from the junction by the impact?The cars were actually stopped over another 20-30m up the road, they might have been pulled over or they could have ended up there as a result of the impact
Good on you for stopping.
Once I was driving on a very busy London road and right infront of me I saw a small red car side swipe a brand new BMW X5 for what looked like absolutely no reason. The driver of the small red car was probably on the phone as there was no obvious reason for going into the side of the X5.... Well apart from maybe pulling out of the active bus lane without looking to his side. I dont understand why he'd do this though as he had been travelling in the bus lane for a while and his fine was probably already on its way to his address.
I wanted to stop to give the BMW driver my details if he needed an independent witness but the bus lane continued forever. I really regret not being able to 'help' on the day.
Once I was driving on a very busy London road and right infront of me I saw a small red car side swipe a brand new BMW X5 for what looked like absolutely no reason. The driver of the small red car was probably on the phone as there was no obvious reason for going into the side of the X5.... Well apart from maybe pulling out of the active bus lane without looking to his side. I dont understand why he'd do this though as he had been travelling in the bus lane for a while and his fine was probably already on its way to his address.
I wanted to stop to give the BMW driver my details if he needed an independent witness but the bus lane continued forever. I really regret not being able to 'help' on the day.
I would say the van is in the wrong. The car originally in front of the van might even have slowed/flashed to let the driver out of the junction?
The fact the van was doing over the speed limit enforces that the van was at fault? A seemingly stupid overtake obviously didn't help matters.
The fact the van was doing over the speed limit enforces that the van was at fault? A seemingly stupid overtake obviously didn't help matters.
CallorFold said:
The fact the van was doing over the speed limit enforces that the van was at fault?
It doesn't. I can't remember the exact words used but last time I spoke to a legal bod about an accident I was involved in I was told words to the effect that breaking the speed limit is not in itself and act of negligence. If you pull out of a junction in front of a speeding car it is not automatically the other drivers fault because they were speeding.Edit to change my mind. Car that pulled out is at fault.
Edited by Devil2575 on Tuesday 11th November 16:02
Devil2575 said:
I was told words to the effect that breaking the speed limit is not in itself and act of negligence. If you pull out of a junction in front of a speeding car it is not automatically the other drivers fault because they were speeding.
Good point, I believe this was also true in the video released not long ago of the guy on the motorbike who died because someone turned across the main road on the A47? Biker was doing 97, driver was done for death by careless driving? I'd agree, although the van driver was possible reckless speeding and I've lovelt place the blame purely on him. The accident would not have happened if the car driver hadn't pulled out, either he misjudged the approach speed or just didn't see him.
When joining a road it is your responsibility to ensure you join safely and get up to speed, cars already on the road have priority...even if they are speeding.
This is why people inching halway out into the road annoy me and i tend to drive round them, my right of way and my priority.
When joining a road it is your responsibility to ensure you join safely and get up to speed, cars already on the road have priority...even if they are speeding.
This is why people inching halway out into the road annoy me and i tend to drive round them, my right of way and my priority.
CallorFold said:
I would say the van is in the wrong. The car originally in front of the van might even have slowed/flashed to let the driver out of the junction?
Not possible, the van had overtaken the car in front of it and was back on the correct side of the road a good hundred yards or so before the junction. I know it's hard to describe, when I passed the van going in the opposite direction we were 230m from the impact point, 250-260m from where the cars ended up, he overtook immediately after passing me going the other way, and was close/fast enough for my car to rock slightly, which is what caught my attention in the first place...
Whilst speeding may have been contributory, from what you have said so far it appears the van was travelling ahead on the main road when the red car pulled out of a minor road onto the main road into the path of the van & the van collided with it.
The red car has failed to give way to traffic on the main road & is at fault.
ETA. The 'flashing of headlights' mentioned by Callorfold & which may or may not have happened in this incident is not an invitation or permission to another road user to go or pull out or anything else although over time its widespread misuse results in a dangerous belief that it does.
The flashing of headlights is an alternative to the use of the horn to alert another driver to your presence & that is how it would be viewed by the investigating officer.
The red car has failed to give way to traffic on the main road & is at fault.
ETA. The 'flashing of headlights' mentioned by Callorfold & which may or may not have happened in this incident is not an invitation or permission to another road user to go or pull out or anything else although over time its widespread misuse results in a dangerous belief that it does.
The flashing of headlights is an alternative to the use of the horn to alert another driver to your presence & that is how it would be viewed by the investigating officer.
Edited by paintman on Tuesday 11th November 15:51
Centurion07 said:
the_lone_wolf said:
As a NB, the car that he overtook would have watched the accident happen less than 100m in front of them, and they didn't stop
s.the_lone_wolf said:
CallorFold said:
I would say the van is in the wrong. The car originally in front of the van might even have slowed/flashed to let the driver out of the junction?
Not possible, the van had overtaken the car in front of it and was back on the correct side of the road a good hundred yards or so before the junction. I know it's hard to describe, when I passed the van going in the opposite direction we were 230m from the impact point, 250-260m from where the cars ended up, he overtook immediately after passing me going the other way, and was close/fast enough for my car to rock slightly, which is what caught my attention in the first place...
It is frustrating when people pull out onto main roads when it's your right of way. I don't mind easing off so they have time to pick up some speed but having to anchor on because some muppet can't wait a few more seconds is just carelessness.
Just to help anybody visualising the scene, I've removed the location, although thinking about it now should anybody that was involved see this thread they'd recognise it anyway so that was kind of pointless and I'll post it - the accident occurred HERE...
The top photo points towards the direction I was travelling and the van was approaching from, when we passed one another we were just beyond the third car you can see
The bottom photo shows the junction the red car pulled out of, which is on the right, it's one way and visibility is pretty poor in both directions, especially to your right when exiting
The top photo points towards the direction I was travelling and the van was approaching from, when we passed one another we were just beyond the third car you can see
The bottom photo shows the junction the red car pulled out of, which is on the right, it's one way and visibility is pretty poor in both directions, especially to your right when exiting
Devil2575 said:
Really stupid road to be overtaking on.
The overtake was without doubt totally inappropriate, the road is pretty common for minor speeding, find myself drifting over thirty occasionally, but it's residential with entrances with poor visibility on one side, busy park on the other with a walled/blind entrance, not the place to be doing 40/50/60mph in the dark overtaking other carsHaving said that, from what I saw I can't comment on the guy's speed at the time of the accident, I told the copper who attended as much, I was 300m away by then and all I saw was the hazards come on, but for him to set off both his airbags, stove the front of his car in and bend the chassis of the other vehicle so the doors wouldn't close it stands to reason that it wasn't thirty...
Hard to know since you didn't see the accident, and I'm not sure I share your confidence in assessing the speed of a retreating vehicle in your RVM.
On the face of it the car pulling out didn't look properly, and really one of the skills of pulling into a road is first making sure it's clear to proceed, but like I said from the light on facts, heavy on conjecture report you give, it's hard to know the truth.
As a witness my advice to you is to take prejudice out of your account and stick to facts. "I saw the van overtake going the other way" is about what you know. And since you didn't see the accident I'm not really sure you're technically a witness at all.
On the face of it the car pulling out didn't look properly, and really one of the skills of pulling into a road is first making sure it's clear to proceed, but like I said from the light on facts, heavy on conjecture report you give, it's hard to know the truth.
As a witness my advice to you is to take prejudice out of your account and stick to facts. "I saw the van overtake going the other way" is about what you know. And since you didn't see the accident I'm not really sure you're technically a witness at all.
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