Driver Training
Discussion
Got my s2000 at the weekend. It's my first rwd car and they have a bit of a reputation for being quite tail happy. I think it's that that's making me a bit cautious and I'm finding I haven't got much confidence when cornering quickly on roads I know well. For comparison I feel a lot more confident in my gf's mini cooper s and can really get it by the scruff of the neck on roundabouts when the roads are quiet.
I'm interested in spending some money on driver tuition on track where I can explore the limits of the car in a more safe environment ideally in both wet and dry conditions. I know some of you will be thinking man up but I really like the car and don't want to bin it (or hurt myself or anyone else) experimenting on the public road. Can anyone recommend somewhere? I'm in herts by the way.
I'm interested in spending some money on driver tuition on track where I can explore the limits of the car in a more safe environment ideally in both wet and dry conditions. I know some of you will be thinking man up but I really like the car and don't want to bin it (or hurt myself or anyone else) experimenting on the public road. Can anyone recommend somewhere? I'm in herts by the way.
You could always try car limits at North weald air field. The guy is really good. And as there are 3-4 of you it's normally cheaper.
Basically he starts the day teaching basics and making sure you can start/ stop and turn properly. Then you throw the car down a straight, and fling it around a cone into a 90 degree 'bend'. There's no obstacle just massive run off areas and a pretend 'wall' (a line on the floor) that if you hit you are dead.
Once you are going around that and catching the slide instead of spinning each time, he then teaches you various techniques for doing it faster.
Afternoon it's throttle control and showing how you can move a car forwards / backwards in a donut without changing the lock, just applying throttle.
Then times laps around a coned out course.
All in all not as good as pure 1-1 on a track but a fantastic way to learn the limits of your particular car in a safe environment and get some tips
Plus it's a bit of a giggle doing donuts for a chunk of the day.
Basically he starts the day teaching basics and making sure you can start/ stop and turn properly. Then you throw the car down a straight, and fling it around a cone into a 90 degree 'bend'. There's no obstacle just massive run off areas and a pretend 'wall' (a line on the floor) that if you hit you are dead.
Once you are going around that and catching the slide instead of spinning each time, he then teaches you various techniques for doing it faster.
Afternoon it's throttle control and showing how you can move a car forwards / backwards in a donut without changing the lock, just applying throttle.
Then times laps around a coned out course.
All in all not as good as pure 1-1 on a track but a fantastic way to learn the limits of your particular car in a safe environment and get some tips
Plus it's a bit of a giggle doing donuts for a chunk of the day.
eltax91 said:
You could always try car limits at North weald air field. The guy is really good. And as there are 3-4 of you it's normally cheaper.
Basically he starts the day teaching basics and making sure you can start/ stop and turn properly. Then you throw the car down a straight, and fling it around a cone into a 90 degree 'bend'. There's no obstacle just massive run off areas and a pretend 'wall' (a line on the floor) that if you hit you are dead.
Once you are going around that and catching the slide instead of spinning each time, he then teaches you various techniques for doing it faster.
Afternoon it's throttle control and showing how you can move a car forwards / backwards in a donut without changing the lock, just applying throttle.
Then times laps around a coned out course.
All in all not as good as pure 1-1 on a track but a fantastic way to learn the limits of your particular car in a safe environment and get some tips
Plus it's a bit of a giggle doing donuts for a chunk of the day.
Goggling Andy Walsh mentioned above took me to their site. It's only £220 so think I might check it out.Basically he starts the day teaching basics and making sure you can start/ stop and turn properly. Then you throw the car down a straight, and fling it around a cone into a 90 degree 'bend'. There's no obstacle just massive run off areas and a pretend 'wall' (a line on the floor) that if you hit you are dead.
Once you are going around that and catching the slide instead of spinning each time, he then teaches you various techniques for doing it faster.
Afternoon it's throttle control and showing how you can move a car forwards / backwards in a donut without changing the lock, just applying throttle.
Then times laps around a coned out course.
All in all not as good as pure 1-1 on a track but a fantastic way to learn the limits of your particular car in a safe environment and get some tips
Plus it's a bit of a giggle doing donuts for a chunk of the day.
Al U said:
Goggling Andy Walsh mentioned above took me to their site. It's only £220 so think I might check it out.
You may use a few quids worth of rubber too, do not go on a new set of tyres the tread can end up quite a strange shape...Keep an eye on the remaining tread if you want to be able to drive home, you can easily eat a couple of mm
Well worth it though.
not wanting to be seen as pious, but this makes me laff. OK,when I first got on the road, 75BHP was massive,but then a Moggie 1000 with 30BHP in van form ,the rear end was very lively. Then there was my first car, a 48BHP Wolesley 1500, with a Moggie style suspension and all it's problems. I'm not poking fun, but perhaps someone new to RWD, might try Moggie1000, then Wolseley 1500, then Riley 1500 as an introduction to real rear end twichyness. Then go on to modern RWD cars.
[quote=Who me ?]not wanting to be seen as pious, but this makes me laff. OK,when I first got on the road, 75BHP was massive,but then a Moggie 1000 with 30BHP in van form ,the rear end was very lively. Then there was my first car, a 48BHP Wolesley 1500, with a Moggie style suspension and all it's problems. I'm not poking fun, but perhaps someone new to RWD, might try Moggie1000, then Wolseley 1500, then Riley 1500 as an introduction to real rear end twichyness. Then go on to modern RWD cars.
[/quote]
I must be slightly younger, I drove a moggie on an airfield, but a Dolomite is what I learnt in once I'd pass the test.
[/quote]
I must be slightly younger, I drove a moggie on an airfield, but a Dolomite is what I learnt in once I'd pass the test.
[quote=Who me ?]not wanting to be seen as pious, but this makes me laff. OK,when I first got on the road, 75BHP was massive,but then a Moggie 1000 with 30BHP in van form ,the rear end was very lively. Then there was my first car, a 48BHP Wolesley 1500, with a Moggie style suspension and all it's problems. I'm not poking fun, but perhaps someone new to RWD, might try Moggie1000, then Wolseley 1500, then Riley 1500 as an introduction to real rear end twichyness. Then go on to modern RWD cars.
[/quote]
I'm 25, I've no idea what you are talking about.
[/quote]
I'm 25, I've no idea what you are talking about.
Al U said:
Oh ok. Well I'm looking for good driving tuition places not tales of nostalgia.
It is all about practice and modern cars are so good that you have to be doing something pretty lairy to get the back end to loosen up. What is good about carlimits is that you can go on one of Andy's tuition days then follow that up with a few of his cheaper airfield days to build in the muscle memory. Then when you get the hang of the basics go back and do some more advanced stuff.
Don Palmer is also very good, he has a different approach to Andy and this can help you consider your driving skills from a different angle.
In the end you need to develop your own style and skill set, taking training from more than one person will help if you can keep an open mind and be analytical.
Do not forget to work on your observation and road skills as well as car control.
I don't think you necessarily need to spend a fortune on a tuition day.
Just book on to a novice trackday and build up slowly so you get used to the car. If you really can't get to grips with it then sure, book some tuition, but practice is what you need.
At the risk of being branded irresponsible, I'd even say that just driving it on the road for while would do the job, maybe experimenting with giving the throttle a little prod on suitably empty roundabouts with plenty of run off to get used to how it reacts and how it feels when it's about to let go.
Just book on to a novice trackday and build up slowly so you get used to the car. If you really can't get to grips with it then sure, book some tuition, but practice is what you need.
At the risk of being branded irresponsible, I'd even say that just driving it on the road for while would do the job, maybe experimenting with giving the throttle a little prod on suitably empty roundabouts with plenty of run off to get used to how it reacts and how it feels when it's about to let go.
Tuition is by no means necessary, the S2000 is really not the animal people make it out to me unless you drive like a complete idiot. However, I'd argue it's probably the single biggest "upgrade" you can buy to your car in terms of enhancing your enjoyment of it.
For what it's worth, the second biggest upgrade on something like an S2000 is getting the geometry set up by someone who really knows what they're doing - ie not someone who will just set the car to "book" values but who will discuss your preferences and driving style and tailor the settings to you. #
If you're interested in safety more than enjoyment, some advanced road-craft training will do far more than a car control type course.
For what it's worth, the second biggest upgrade on something like an S2000 is getting the geometry set up by someone who really knows what they're doing - ie not someone who will just set the car to "book" values but who will discuss your preferences and driving style and tailor the settings to you. #
If you're interested in safety more than enjoyment, some advanced road-craft training will do far more than a car control type course.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 20th November 11:47
kambites said:
Tuition is by no means necessary, the S2000 is really not the animal people make it out to me unless you drive like a complete idiot. However, I'd argue it's probably the single biggest "upgrade" you can buy to your car in terms of enhancing your enjoyment of it.
My view of track tuition is that it's something you do if you find you're not getting any quicker through practice and you feel you're not getting near what the car's capable of because everyone else in the same car is faster than you! Not taking anything away from instructors at all but I've done it a couple of times when it's been free on trackdays (including from Don Palmer) and never got much from it really but then that's only been a short session. I'd start off just doing trackdays and building experience so when you do decide you want tuition it's a little more advanced and you get more from it. I wouldn't want to pay someone to tell me the basics of fast driving when most competent drivers can probably learn that themselves pretty quickly through practice.
kambites said:
Sorry I was talking about road driving, not track driving. The road is not the place to learn how you car handles beyond its limits.
Obviously if you're going to do track days anyway, they will eventually provide the same sort of knowledge. It'll just take longer.
My reading of the OP was that he was a competent driver but just not used to RWD. In that case I think literally one trackday would go a long way to solving that. I did my first trackday about a month after getting my licence and learnt an absolutely huge amount about car control in that few hours. Not saying you'd suddenly become Lewis Hamilton but just gaining confidence in predicting when the car is approaching the limit and what works and what doesn't work when you exceed it! Really just getting a feel for it basically.Obviously if you're going to do track days anyway, they will eventually provide the same sort of knowledge. It'll just take longer.
Thanks for the replies. Essentially, as the poster above has said I consider myself to be very competent in a FWD car as they are all I have driven for the time I've been on the road. I have done a track day experience where I drove a cayman, R8 and single seater car before. I had a good time and the instructor seemed quite complimentary.
The thing is with the S2000 I did a lot of research before I bought it and the topic of it being tail happy came up a lot so I assumed it was true. I agree with the poster above that said I could probably learn the limits gradually on the road by pushing a little harder into roundabouts but I just really don't want to bin it and having not had much exposure to RWD before I thought it would be good to go and chuck it about on a track and learn how stupid I have to get with it before it spins if that makes sense.
The thing is with the S2000 I did a lot of research before I bought it and the topic of it being tail happy came up a lot so I assumed it was true. I agree with the poster above that said I could probably learn the limits gradually on the road by pushing a little harder into roundabouts but I just really don't want to bin it and having not had much exposure to RWD before I thought it would be good to go and chuck it about on a track and learn how stupid I have to get with it before it spins if that makes sense.
Edited by Al U on Thursday 20th November 12:13
Edited by Al U on Thursday 20th November 12:13
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