Which brake pads/oil/brake fluid for 993 RS?

[johnny senna]

Guys,

My 993 RS needs new brake discs/pads, brake fluid and an oil change. Which products would you go for?

My car is for road use and track use, a 50:50 split. I will be driving the car to the track for a start. My car has a brake cooling kit installed which might mean that standard pads are OK? I have no idea about this.

I was thinking:

1. Pads: Pagid Blues. These worked well on track on my old E30 M3. I need a pad that WILL work when cold. I used to have Mintax F4R race pads in my old M3 for a short while and they scared me to death when cold on the roads.

2. Discs: Standard Porsche.

3. Brake fluid: Castrol SRF (or is this OTT?). Or do Porsche have their own brake fluid? I can't see Porsche's out-performing SRF though.

4. Oil.......I have no idea what is best here. Do you need a "thicker" oil in this older engine? When I ran E30 M3s, we used heavier oils, eg Mobil 1 15-50 as opposed to Mobil 1 0-40.


All suggestions welcome!

[tony.t]

johnny senna said:

Guys, My 993 RS needs new brake discs/pads, brake fluid and an oil change. Which products would you go for? My car is for road use and track use, a 50:50 split. I will be driving the car to the track for a start. My car has a brake cooling kit installed which might mean that standard pads are OK? I have no idea about this. I was thinking: 1. Pads: Pagid Blues. These worked well on track on my old E30 M3. I need a pad that WILL work when cold. I used to have Mintax F4R race pads in my old M3 for a short while and they scared me to death when cold on the roads. 2. Discs: Standard Porsche. 3. Brake fluid: Castrol SRF (or is this OTT?). Or do Porsche have their own brake fluid? I can't see Porsche's out-performing SRF though. 4. Oil.......I have no idea what is best here. Do you need a "thicker" oil in this older engine? When I ran E30 M3s, we used heavier oils, eg Mobil 1 15-50 as opposed to Mobil 1 0-40. All suggestions welcome!

I have always used OE Porsches discs and been satisfied.
Yellow Pagids would be my choice; there isn't much between them and the blacks and they last forever and are supposedly kinder to discs. IMHO are more progresive as well.

[randeria]

I prob do 2000 track miles in my 993RS every year and I have always used the standard pads. Anything harder will put more wear on your discs. Whilst having more bite from the pads is attractive, the RS can out-break virtually anything, so I'd recommend using the standard pads at least to start with.

For standard, buy the textar ones from Eurocar parts -part no rears 101330090 fronts 101330130. They are identical to the Porsche ones, and I have a colleague who has been to the factory in Germany which makes them, and he has confirmed that they are exactly the same (bar a Porsche model no). You can buy them online. From memory the Porsche OE pads even say Textar on them. You will save a fair bit going down this route. And don't bother with the anti-squeal shims and the wear sensors (just short circuit them at each wheel) - you can then change pads in about 30 seconds once you have the wheel off.

Have fun with the RS. It is the most awesome car!

[johnny senna]

Thanks chaps.

Any advice on oil or brake fluid please?

[cuneus]

Motul RBF brake fluid: very nearly as good as SRF about 12 pounds a litre

[burzel]

Colin at 9m had some castrol srf for sale at around £20,which was a good saving, not sure if he has any left now. It is a little ott ,very good but expensive.
I use the 76 oil race fluid, as a lot of racers use this, its dot 5,cheap in comparison to srf.And we also change fluid every season.
Pads,factory ones are very good,life cycle on pads and discs etc.I have been using the pagid yellow rs19 for sprinting and hillclimbing,good from cold,and just do not wear out the disc or pads,as you would expect. Expensive 30% more than blue/orange pads,but last twice as long.
I have also been using the pagid black rs14 in the cup car ,fantastic stopping grip,and consistent when discs are glowing!(again good wear characteristics on pads and discs)

[johnny senna]

Thanks cuneus and Paul.

Which oil do people use please?

[peterpeter]

randeria said:

I prob do 2000 track miles in my 993RS every year and I have always used the standard pads. Anything harder will put more wear on your discs. Whilst having more bite from the pads is attractive, the RS can out-break virtually anything, so I'd recommend using the standard pads at least to start with. For standard, buy the textar ones from Eurocar parts -part no rears 101330090 fronts 101330130. They are identical to the Porsche ones, and I have a colleague who has been to the factory in Germany which makes them, and he has confirmed that they are exactly the same (bar a Porsche model no). You can buy them online. From memory the Porsche OE pads even say Textar on them. You will save a fair bit going down this route. And don't bother with the anti-squeal shims and the wear sensors (just short circuit them at each wheel) - you can then change pads in about 30 seconds once you have the wheel off. Have fun with the RS. It is the most awesome car!

Thanks for the Europarts link....those pads are dirt cheap....£89!!!
I think the standard Porsche ones are £160!

[993rsr]

best oil is Mobil 1 15/50 motorsport. Downside is £37 for 5 litres.

[clubsport]

John, interesting you mention the 15/50 mobil 1.

I considered using this in mine, but was advised by the experienced service guy that the 993 needs maximum of 5w for cold starting...maybe something to do with the hydraulic tappets? If Johnny S has solid lifters fitted (which I believe he has) then 15/50w may be the answer.

Looking at this excellent thread from opieoilman, there is an instance where somebody saw less hp on a dyno with 15/50....the plot thickens

I agree that mobil 1 is expensive,,,,I managed to buy a dry sump full today in Halfords....it was 34.95 for 4 litres before the 20% sale discount, maybe worth checking.

JS, never had any problems with standard pads and S02...I would think it may make sense to upgrade to Pagids if you plan to take advantage of some stickier rubber at some point.

[johnny senna]

clubsport said:

John, interesting you mention the 15/50 mobil 1. I considered using this in mine, but was advised by the experienced service guy that the 993 needs maximum of 5w for cold starting...maybe something to do with the hydraulic tappets? If Johnny S has solid lifters fitted (which I believe he has) then 15/50w may be the answer. Looking at this excellent thread from opieoilman, there is an instance where somebody saw less hp on a dyno with 15/50....the plot thickens I agree that mobil 1 is expensive,,,,I managed to buy a dry sump full today in Halfords....it was 34.95 for 4 litres before the 20% sale discount, maybe worth checking. JS, never had any problems with standard pads and S02...I would think it may make sense to upgrade to Pagids if you plan to take advantage of some stickier rubber at some point.

Thanks all.

Yes Paul, my car has mechanical rocker arms. I haven't the faintest idea how this might affect my choice of oil so I will look into this.

My car has fairly sticky rubber...Dunlop Supersport Race. I understand these tyres are a second (or so) a lap slower than Michelin Cups, but that they still get classified as stickies. The tread pattern looks better than the Cups for wet weather though. (I remember a thread about this not long back). With the custom cooling kit I have installed for the front brakes, I am tempted to go for the standard pads and see how they are. But if I get a good price on Pagids I'll probably go for them.

I will ask my mechanic what he reckons about all this. I think there are a few good options for oil/pads/brake fluid that folks here have mentioned.

>> Edited by johnny senna on Sunday 2nd January 19:49

[993rsr]

Guy who looks after my car is an ex. Porsche head mechanic,so would have to take his word for it.

Second opinion needed, oh Ninemeister....

[stefan1]

Johnny

I used Pagid Blacks and they were excellent - RS19s Yellows (which I had on my CSL) were also excellent but have a higher coefficient of friction and wear the discs more quickly. I would stick with Castrol SRF - no point stinting on a key component when you're barrelling down to La Combe!

Re oil I'd stick to 0-40 or 5-40 Mobil 1. The car has run very well on this in all conditions, with virtually no oil usage - in 16,000 miles, I doubt if I added more than a litre between regular services (and oil changes are advisable every 4,000 to 5,000 miles if the car is heavily tracked).

One point on your car - it has a second oil cooler (race spec.), and hence has a very large oil capacity - I think it's around 13 litres from memory. Key thing is not to run the oil level at full - it should read no more than half way up the gauge (or dipstick) when at full operating temperature - and in these cold conditions the car probably won't reach full operating temperature (as per the gauge) because of the effectiveness of the second oil cooler. This means that during normal road driving, the oil gauge (which only works after about 30 seconds of idling on a flat surface, ditto the dipstick), will read low - in the bottom quarter of the gauge. This is fine as long as it reads around half full when the oil temp is reading halfway up the gauge (ie normal operating temp). Hope that makes sense!

The reason for this is that when you do track the car, the oil will expand as it heats up (and, for eg, 10% expansion on 13 litres is over 1 litre of volume!) and if it starts full you may have a problem (the red RS on the other thread had this problem after a service and the engine was damaged and had to be rebuilt).

For tyres, the Dunlops are nearly as good as Cups in the dry, but better in the wet (particularly standing water) due to the additional and deeper grooves. New tyres also start with around 5-6mm rather than the 4mm on Cups, and they are a harder compound, so you will get a lot of use out of them. Your RS is so well set up it wears the tyres very evenly on track, although if you do a lot of road miles (as I did to and from the Ring), you need to watch the inside shoulder on the rear tyres for premature wear due to the significant camber the car is running.

Kind regards

[johnny senna]

stefan,

That is fantastic information. Thank you.

I intend to stick with the Dunlop Supersport Race tyres as I suspect they are the best comprimise tyre around.

I will follow your advice on oil, pads and brake fluid.


I have heard about your GT3. It sounds mega. Could you tell us what sort of work it has done?

[stefan1]

Glad to help. I bet you are looking forward to the first track day of the year!

My GT3 is a Mk2 comfort model, with a Tequipment half cage. Originally I wanted a road car that I could track, but after driving a Manthey modified GT3 I could not resist a few upgrades! So it has had:

- K410 engine upgrade - circa 410hp with a new map and full exhaust system
- Manthey's version of the RS carbon rear wing (it offers more downforce)
- A "front cooling conversion" which moves the radiators at the front of the car forwards, cuts the front PU to match the RS / Cup car air vents, all to allow the hot air to escape over the top of the car not underneath - reduces front lift a lot, and avoids hot air being channelled to the brakes
- Pagid Orange pads and Castrol SRF fluid
- Manthey K&W shock absorbers and springs, adjustable for bump and rebound, with Manthey geometry set up for the Ring
- Uniball top mounts for the front struts, which allows the car to run more castor, which in turn allows more camber in the corners.

I'm currently running the car on the standard wheels with Dunlop Super Sport Race tyres, although I have a set of BBS wheels with Cup tyres for the warmer weather.

All in all, it's near ideal for track use now, whilst still being a comfortable (leather seats etc) road car for those long hauls to the Ring.

[Melv]

"probably won't reach full operating temperature (as per the gauge) because of the effectiveness of the second oil cooler."

B*llox. The oil cooler circuit doesn't come into play until the oil has reached a certain temp and the thermostatic valve under the RH cill opens.....

Rgds
Mel

PS Running SRF and Pagid orange on my Cup Car -fanbleddytastic.......

>> Edited by Melv on Tuesday 4th January 09:02

[johnny senna]

Lads,

Can someone explain the differences or pecking order of the Pagid pads please? Is the Blue the cheapest and most road biased with the oranges the most track biased? And are Blacks and Yellows somewhere in the middle?

Edited to say....I'll have a look for their website.



By the way stefan......outstanding car! Olaf Manthey is The Man!

>> Edited by johnny senna on Monday 3rd January 13:33

[tony.t]

stefan1 said:

Johnny I used Pagid Blacks and they were excellent - RS19s Yellows (which I had on my CSL) were also excellent but have a higher coefficient of friction and wear the discs more quickly.

Pagid Black

Friction co-efficient cold = 0.44
Friction co-eff at 100C = 0.47
Friction co-eff at 300C = 0.49
Maximum co-efficient = 0.54 at 600C
Constant working temperature = 400-700C
Maximum working temperature (short period only) = 800C

Pagid Yellow

Friction co-efficient cold = 0.40
Friction co-eff at 100C = 0.43
Friction co-eff at 300C = 0.47
Maximum co-efficient = 0.49 at 550C
Constant working temperature = 400-700C
Maximum working temperature (short period only) = 750C

The blacks are the more agressive pad and have a reputation for wearing discs quicker.
IMO the blacks have slightly better bite which is great with hot MPSCs et al in the dry but nor so good in the cold or damp where it tends to cause locking up. My set up is similar to the 993RS and both pads will lock up hot MPSCs in the dry and go all day without fade.
Using Castrol SRF that 9M had going cheap and have used ATE super blue and I would say the SRF has needed bleeding less often than the super blue but have not had any fade while using either,(except on cool down laps)but 964 brake cooling is poor.

[johnny senna]

Thanks Tony,

So do Orange and Blue come "below" the Black and Yellow, i.e. they are more road biased?

[tony.t]

johnny senna said:

Thanks Tony, So do Orange and Blue come "below" the Black and Yellow, i.e. they are more road biased?

Blue
Friction co-efficient cold = 0.40
Friction co-eff at 100C = 0.42
Friction co-eff at 300C = 0.43Constant working temperature = 350 - 600C
Maximum temperature (for short period only) = 650C

Orange

Friction co-efficient cold = 0.36
Friction co-eff at 100C = 0.38
Friction co-eff at 300C = 0.42
Maximum co-efficient = 0.49 at 600C
Constant working temperature = 350-600C
Maximum working temperature (short period only) = 700C


In general the orange is considered the trackday pad of choice with "R" tyres and has been the standard against which others have been measured to some degree.
The blue is less agressive say fast road or trackday but perhaps less suitable with "R" tyres at track.
The yellow is similar in performance to the orange but lasts longer and is an endurance racing pad. More expensive but fewer pad changes.
The blacks are the most agressive and IMO overkill for trackdays unless you are pushing really hard or using slicks. They wear discs faster; I'm lead to believe 1 disc per 2 sets of pads with black, cf. 1 disc per 3 sets of yellow (which ties with my experience) but the yellows last longer as well.