Audi A4 oil starvation - Dealership blunder
Discussion
My local Audi dealership has taken all the fun out of driving for me
A long story, but my local Audi dealership have damaged my car as well as failing to fix a warrantied issue and refuse to have anything to do with me. It's baffling the level of incompetence and blatant disregard for my problem that I've encountered. I was hoping that someone could help by telling me what trading standard institutions would it be worth contacting about my problem. Please help!!!
The following is a summary of my experience these last few months.
the story:
what happened:
I have an Audi A4 S-Line 2.0 diesel; it has been plagued with electrical faults for over a year now. My local Audi dealership agreed to have another look at the fault despite only just being out of warranty, as I'd had the issue for most of the warranty period. While they had the car they also changed a faulty oil filter.
Whenever I pick up a car that's had the oil system meddled with I always check it before driving away (since a Ford garage forgot to fit a filter to my Fiesta 8 years ago), on this occasion the computer said please wait for the engine to warm up; so I drove it away, finding it quite odd that the message wouldn't clear. ~25 miles later all the alarm bells were going off that there was no oil in the engine.
I pulled over and opened the cap, thick black smoke was pissing out and it didn't show signs of stopping, it was still coming out as thick and fast when I found a bottle of oil to put in. The engine bay had been cleaned from the leaky oil filter before and was still clean, so the Audi dealership hadn't put any replacement oil in there!
I returned the car the next day telling them exactly what happened, they wouldn't let me drive away in it telling me it was seriously bad (they'll change their mind later). I picked it up later that day, and the representative smiles and in a condescending tone laughs and tells me "oh! Mr X. We had a look and there was oil in there after all!"..... (you don't say) So I explained again as I had told them before, that I had put oil in it as I wouldn't drive it without. They had me wait another hour while they took the car back off me. They concluded it was fine, I enquired about what they had been doing and I was told they had checked under the engine, the brakes, suspension, irrelevant in this case as the engine had been devoid of oil without leaking it, I produced the empty bottle I had put in the car and they gave me another one as a replacement, telling me "if you get any problems, bring it back we will fix it, Audi look after their customers, they are good like that". (this is the first time they use this phrase, I was to hear it several times, but yet I still have a problem).
consequences:
Over the next week I experienced a loss of low end power, odd noises and a slightly different engine note; (it also became apparent that the electrical fault was still there).
Audi's first response to their mistake:
Returning it to Audi they brought out a technician to test the car. I explained to him what I had encountered. I left the car with them for a day and they told me to pick it up, telling me "he took it for a drive and said it seemed fine to him". Eventually they told me, they would find another car of comparable age and mileage for me to test drive, assuring me that I would find any change in power to be down to the age of the car.
After over six weeks of ringing up and visiting the dealership my rep told me they had found one, I just had to wait for it to pass their healthcheck. Two weeks later it was ready, and my rep had left Audi to move to Italy (wait what?). So I had to explain the situation to a new rep, who sent me and the technician out in the car, assuring me that I would find it drive the same as mine, but if it didn't they would then start a full investigation into my car.
Audi attempts to convince me to accept my car is slower:
I drove their car with the technician, it had visibly had a hard life, they had very obviously brought me the most knackered 4 year old A4 they could find. I started the key and immediately the car sounded healthier, I pulled away without any drama, and drove for a good 35-40miles in it.
Despite the rough ride, the wheel balance being out and a selection of other things that made me question how it could have supposedly passed their Audi approved checks, the engine itself was brilliant, exactly how mine was before my local dealership knackered it.
I explained this to the technician, who snapped and exclaimed "I don't see how not putting oil in the engine will affect it's performance"; a very odd thing for a technician to say to a customer.
The technician later informs me not to worry as "if the car develops a problem we will fix it, Audi look after their customers, they are good like that". (This is the second time I've been told this and I've got no reason to believe that at this point).
Audi UK steps in
I decided to get in touch with Audi UK. Telling me they will be investigating the issue. So far another 4 weeks have passed and the best they've been able to tell me is "The technician says it's fine, so we have to agree with him as he is the expert", I have no confidence in the expertise in this garage, having neglected to put oil in the car and then telling me "I don't see how not putting oil in the engine will affect it's performance". Audi UK are currently trying to encourage this garage to put my car on a rolling road to test the performance, but so far they are refusing to do so.
So here I am now...
So I am beginning to think that this isn't going anywhere. I get no pleasure out of driving my car anymore, I just find it frustrating, and I get angry.
What trading standard institutions would it be worth contacting about my problem?
OK, take a deep breath. No need for big fonts or bold lettering. You need to understand a few things about engines, and oil, and filters.
First, most engines hold about 5 litres of oil. That's more than a "bottle full". A bottle is typically a litre.
Second. cars don't have a warning light to tell you there's "no oil in the engine" : Audis have two lights : a : Low Oil Pressure (red, important. STOP the car if this one comes on) and, b : Low Oil Level (yellow, less important : Keep on driving and "top up" oil at nearest opportunity). Read the handbook for details.
If an oil filter was not fitted (like your fiesta) then the pump would pump all 5 litres of the oil out of the filter hole onto the ground, and the RED OIL PRESSURE light would never extinguish, because there's no pressure in the system.
Third, there's no need to drain the oil to change the filter on many cars. (Pop the bonnet. The filter should be visible at the front of the engine, on the top. You'll only lose a few hundred cc of oil when you change it.
From your description, I'm guessing the following happened. Your old filter was leaking slightly, and they replaced it. The leak, together with the small amount of oil lost from the filter change meant that after 25 miles driving, the YELLOW light came on. (If they'd drained the oil and not refilled it, the RED light would have stayed on from the moment you started the engine. You put a litre in, and the yellow light went off. All absolutely by the book. (Yes, maybe a more diligent technician would have topped up the oil after the filter change, but that's not the problem).
Some vapour from the filler cap when an engine is hot is perfectly normal.
The MMI message about waiting for the engine to warm up is also normal behaviour, from what I remember. Oil level is only measured when the car has been a: warm and b: level and stationary for a while.
So, whatever's wrong with your car (and I don't dispute something is wrong), it's most unlikely to have ANYTHING to do with the filter change.
What's the electrical problem you're having?
First, most engines hold about 5 litres of oil. That's more than a "bottle full". A bottle is typically a litre.
Second. cars don't have a warning light to tell you there's "no oil in the engine" : Audis have two lights : a : Low Oil Pressure (red, important. STOP the car if this one comes on) and, b : Low Oil Level (yellow, less important : Keep on driving and "top up" oil at nearest opportunity). Read the handbook for details.
If an oil filter was not fitted (like your fiesta) then the pump would pump all 5 litres of the oil out of the filter hole onto the ground, and the RED OIL PRESSURE light would never extinguish, because there's no pressure in the system.
Third, there's no need to drain the oil to change the filter on many cars. (Pop the bonnet. The filter should be visible at the front of the engine, on the top. You'll only lose a few hundred cc of oil when you change it.
From your description, I'm guessing the following happened. Your old filter was leaking slightly, and they replaced it. The leak, together with the small amount of oil lost from the filter change meant that after 25 miles driving, the YELLOW light came on. (If they'd drained the oil and not refilled it, the RED light would have stayed on from the moment you started the engine. You put a litre in, and the yellow light went off. All absolutely by the book. (Yes, maybe a more diligent technician would have topped up the oil after the filter change, but that's not the problem).
Some vapour from the filler cap when an engine is hot is perfectly normal.
The MMI message about waiting for the engine to warm up is also normal behaviour, from what I remember. Oil level is only measured when the car has been a: warm and b: level and stationary for a while.
So, whatever's wrong with your car (and I don't dispute something is wrong), it's most unlikely to have ANYTHING to do with the filter change.
What's the electrical problem you're having?
Hi silentbrown,
I have a familiarity with engines, oil and filters. I used 'big fonts' (or headers) to break up a wordy lengthy post so people could be bothered to read it.
I do recall my fiesta used to take 4.5 litres when I did the oil and filter changes myself, but I was lead to believe the Audi took much less for some reason which did baffle me. The rep told me they found 1.2 Litres in the engine after I returned it which they told me was acceptable. There was definitely a filter fitted as there was no oil in the engine bay, it was and still is sparkling clean. The MMI was binging at me about oil and all I could think of was what happened to my Fiesta, I can't remember what colour it was I'm sure you can understand I didn't want a repeat of the fiesta fiasco.
The light did eventually go out so it is plausible that it was yellow, but the message read 'contact manufacturer' if that helps. ALso what came out the oil cap was definitely not condensation, I know exactly what you are referring to and as I described this was thick black smoke.
From the day I received my car back from the garage I experienced unusual behaviours from my car, loss of low end power, different engine noises etc. As far as I can see, the garage returned my car in a compromised condition compared to when I dropped it off.
What else could cause these issues? Other than oil starvation.
I have a familiarity with engines, oil and filters. I used 'big fonts' (or headers) to break up a wordy lengthy post so people could be bothered to read it.
I do recall my fiesta used to take 4.5 litres when I did the oil and filter changes myself, but I was lead to believe the Audi took much less for some reason which did baffle me. The rep told me they found 1.2 Litres in the engine after I returned it which they told me was acceptable. There was definitely a filter fitted as there was no oil in the engine bay, it was and still is sparkling clean. The MMI was binging at me about oil and all I could think of was what happened to my Fiesta, I can't remember what colour it was I'm sure you can understand I didn't want a repeat of the fiesta fiasco.
The light did eventually go out so it is plausible that it was yellow, but the message read 'contact manufacturer' if that helps. ALso what came out the oil cap was definitely not condensation, I know exactly what you are referring to and as I described this was thick black smoke.
From the day I received my car back from the garage I experienced unusual behaviours from my car, loss of low end power, different engine noises etc. As far as I can see, the garage returned my car in a compromised condition compared to when I dropped it off.
What else could cause these issues? Other than oil starvation.
I forgot to say "Welcome to PH!"
An A4 2.0 TDI will take roughly 4.5L of oil. About the same as a Fiesta. (check you service bills to see how much they charge you for).
Assuming your car has the 'electronic dipstick' (what year is it, BTW?) the difference between "min" and "max" is 1 litre. So if the yellow light comes on, put in a litre ASAP.
Again, you car's ECU should probably log any oil-related warnings so that Audi techs can see what happened. But just 1.2 litres of oil in the engine is ridiculously low and would cause major damage to engine bearings pretty quickly. Any tech should know that.
I don't want to sound too negative, but aspects of this don't entirely make sense. You need to be clear about what errors were shown, how much oil you put in, and how much oil was really in the engine afterwards. Also, how much oil were you losing with the leaky filter - and did the MMI dipstick work correctly before all this happened?
An A4 2.0 TDI will take roughly 4.5L of oil. About the same as a Fiesta. (check you service bills to see how much they charge you for).
Assuming your car has the 'electronic dipstick' (what year is it, BTW?) the difference between "min" and "max" is 1 litre. So if the yellow light comes on, put in a litre ASAP.
Again, you car's ECU should probably log any oil-related warnings so that Audi techs can see what happened. But just 1.2 litres of oil in the engine is ridiculously low and would cause major damage to engine bearings pretty quickly. Any tech should know that.
I don't want to sound too negative, but aspects of this don't entirely make sense. You need to be clear about what errors were shown, how much oil you put in, and how much oil was really in the engine afterwards. Also, how much oil were you losing with the leaky filter - and did the MMI dipstick work correctly before all this happened?
thanks!
I've never been charged as I have a service plan, I'll check again to see if it states what they put in.
It is electronic, the oil level is displayed on the MMI, and had always shown up with a level before. I had never seen the please wait message until that day, and it often comes up first thing since, it also on a few occasions came back on during the journey.
The car is four years old.
I'll try and get a readout from the ECU, I understand someone where I work has a diagnostic computer of some description I've been meaning to ask to borrow. I've been getting a lot of odd conflicting information, I thought it was odd to have so little fuel, but then I wasn't keen on the 24 month oil change interval in the manual either, I just thought it was another eccentricity with this new diesel tech (my Fiesta was nice and simple).
I put one litre in, I quoted by both the rep and the technician that 1.2L was found in the car when I returned it, which supported my understanding that it only takes 1.5, I can't remember where I picked that up from. The leaky filter wasn't even loosing that much, it went from the max to the min twice in about 8 months, a different Audi garage topped it up between the electrical diagnostics.
I can't remember the exact wording of the MMI, I recall there was a symbol with a red border, possibly a triangle with an exclamation mark or something similar, with a message about the oil and 'contact the manufacturer'; my biggest concern at the time was to get oil in asap to limit the damage, so I pulled over immediately.
The MMI dipstick always seemed to work fine before.
I've never been charged as I have a service plan, I'll check again to see if it states what they put in.
It is electronic, the oil level is displayed on the MMI, and had always shown up with a level before. I had never seen the please wait message until that day, and it often comes up first thing since, it also on a few occasions came back on during the journey.
The car is four years old.
I'll try and get a readout from the ECU, I understand someone where I work has a diagnostic computer of some description I've been meaning to ask to borrow. I've been getting a lot of odd conflicting information, I thought it was odd to have so little fuel, but then I wasn't keen on the 24 month oil change interval in the manual either, I just thought it was another eccentricity with this new diesel tech (my Fiesta was nice and simple).
I put one litre in, I quoted by both the rep and the technician that 1.2L was found in the car when I returned it, which supported my understanding that it only takes 1.5, I can't remember where I picked that up from. The leaky filter wasn't even loosing that much, it went from the max to the min twice in about 8 months, a different Audi garage topped it up between the electrical diagnostics.
I can't remember the exact wording of the MMI, I recall there was a symbol with a red border, possibly a triangle with an exclamation mark or something similar, with a message about the oil and 'contact the manufacturer'; my biggest concern at the time was to get oil in asap to limit the damage, so I pulled over immediately.
The MMI dipstick always seemed to work fine before.
TheBellsprout said:
I used 'big fonts' (or headers) to break up a wordy lengthy post so people could be bothered to read it.
Ignore him. It's nice to see someone put an effort into their written communication, so kudos to you sir. Lord only knows the English language is devolving into some kind of lazy arsed sub-language, but we're not here for English lessons.Thick smoke pouring out the oil filler cap means something got good and toasty inside the engine. My next port of call would be a compression test at an independent garage and if it's much lower than spec, the piston rings have been buggered from oil starvation. Then it really is something for Audi to compensate you for.....if it can be proved they let you drive away with no oil, or very little, in the sump.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
It's nice to see someone put an effort into their written communication, so kudos to you sir.
+1. I was actually jealous because I can't manage anything more complex than bold. SuperchargedVR6 said:
My next port of call would be a compression test at an independent garage and if it's much lower than spec, the piston rings have been buggered from oil starvation. Then it really is something for Audi to compensate you for.....if it can be proved they let you drive away with no oil, or very little, in the sump.
That's good advice. I'd have thought the the main bearings might pack up before the rings, though? Proving that it had no oil when you drove it way is tricky, particularly as a: you can't recall the exact warning lights, and b: you put more oil in yourself (quantity unknown?). It's possible they drained the oil before the filter change and then didn't refill it - which would tally with the reported 1.2 litres. But that's still almost 4 litres short of where it should be.
Edited by silentbrown on Saturday 6th December 20:22
There's so much of this story that doesn't add up, you say you always check the oil level before you leave a garage, yet are claiming there was .2 of a litre in the engine! There must have been a low oil light on as someone has stated, and the car would never have got to 25 miles with that amount in it,I don't believe a mechanic would say 1.2 litres is enough, doesn't make sense, I'm sorry you've been left with a worn engine by this garage but I can't see how you can prove they damaged it. My guess is it was ran low before the filter change
bigvanfan said:
There's so much of this story that doesn't add up, you say you always check the oil level before you leave a garage, yet are claiming there was .2 of a litre in the engine!
There isn't a dipstick on my model of car, you have to check the computer; and it was displaying within tolerance before I dropped it off. As I explained above, I had never seen the wait message before, and the implication of the message was that it wouldn't display anything until I drove the car enough for the engine to warm up.bigvanfan said:
I don't believe a mechanic would say 1.2 litres is enough, doesn't make sense,
Yup, retrospectively it doesn't fill me with a lot of faith for the technical competence of the technicians here.bigvanfan said:
My guess is it was ran low before the filter change
like I said, it was displaying within tolerance before I dropped it off. I should be able to prove it never ran low before as the car records instances when this happens, I need to be able to get a readout but I don't have the kit to do that.SuperchargedVR6 said:
It's nice to see someone put an effort into their written communication, so kudos to you sir.
You are too kind, it is refreshing to see some etiquette on the internet!SuperchargedVR6 said:
Thick smoke pouring out the oil filler cap means something got good and toasty inside the engine.
My thoughts exactly, it doesn't bode well..SuperchargedVR6 said:
My next port of call would be a compression test at an independent garage
Excellent idea, I will look into this asap.Gassing Station | Audi, Seat, Skoda & VW | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff