Emerald ECU Feature Loss
Discussion
Looks like work and family commitments mean I'll have to delay my remapping for a few weeks now 
Giving me time to sit back and think through the options...
Someone I spoke to said that the standard ECU manages the aircon and some other peripheral functions and that with the Emerald unit this features would be lost - can anyone confirm whether this is the case or not?
Giving me time to sit back and think through the options...
Someone I spoke to said that the standard ECU manages the aircon and some other peripheral functions and that with the Emerald unit this features would be lost - can anyone confirm whether this is the case or not?
Tripps said:
Looks like work and family commitments mean I'll have to delay my remapping for a few weeks now
Giving me time to sit back and think through the options...
Someone I spoke to said that the standard ECU manages the aircon and some other peripheral functions and that with the Emerald unit this features would be lost - can anyone confirm whether this is the case or not?
Thats why I canceled my order!
They have said if they manage to figure it out they could upgrade but I don't know at what cost or if they ever will.
The thing is every thing will still work ok but the MBE unit will adjusted some things and the air con is automatically turned off at a certain rev range when accelerating for more power where as this wont happen with the emerald.
I sure Joolz will clarify. He might even be able to tell us if its sorted now!
Craig.
cerber450 said:Presumably the fact the Emerald doesn't know about the air-con also means it cannot account for any power drain when it is switched on too...
The thing is every thing will still work ok but the MBE unit will adjusted some things and the air con is automatically turned off at a certain rev range when accelerating for more power where as this wont happen with the emerald.
What route did you go for in the end Craig?
The std mbe doesn't do anything about power drain when the aircon is switched on. With the emerald all you have to do is take the aircon clutch power out direct to the thermostat. The mbe switches the big fan at intervals to keep airflow through the heat exchanger, but the way I do the fan switching on the emerald means that both fans cycle every few seconds anyway, in real terms what this means is that with the emerald you don't notice anything different in the car than if the mbe was in there, in fact cycling *both fans is much better as with one fan recycling yuo get warm air sucked back through teh rad and just blown back through the radiator. It's a 30 second fix to get the aircon working with the emerald.
So the answer is yup if you just plug in the emerald you'll lose the aircon, but seeing as I do all the emeralds and i know how to bypass it it's not that big a deal I think.
>> Edited by joospeed on Wednesday 5th January 16:38
So the answer is yup if you just plug in the emerald you'll lose the aircon, but seeing as I do all the emeralds and i know how to bypass it it's not that big a deal I think.
>> Edited by joospeed on Wednesday 5th January 16:38
joospeed said:Thanks Joolz, glad to know its a runner again.
So the answer is yup if you just plug in the emerald you'll lose the aircon, but seeing as I do all the emeralds and i know how to bypass it it's not that big a deal I think.
What are there any pros/cons compared to the standard unit or is it a matter of personal preference for the tuner.
Also the big question - what sort of costs would be involved for an Emerald ECU and remapping session?
Hi .
emerald and remap is a std fixed price at 750 for the unit and 200 for the mapping, plus vat.
that of course makes it *more* expensive than the austec remap of the mbe, however ...
as always there's pros and cons for both systems.
austec for : can be diagnosed by any tvr garage with the dealer software, is unnoticeable for insurance pirposes etc, is cheaper for a one-off mapping session.
cons : only austec can remap so no chance for owner-fiddling. if you upgrade your car again afterwards you need austec to remap again.
emerald for : is user-configurable so set your own shift light / rev limit (hard and soft), fan cut-ins etc etc. Any competent rolling road can remap it if you upgrade your engine with the mods coming on-stream soon. you get to play at mapping and can return the unit to std again if you make a eff-up! not affected to the same degree by the TVR throttle pot issues.
cons : it's more expensive if you don't go on to remap later. dealer's cant use their software to diagnose, can always put mbe back in though.
think that's a fair appraisal.
emerald and remap is a std fixed price at 750 for the unit and 200 for the mapping, plus vat.
that of course makes it *more* expensive than the austec remap of the mbe, however ...
as always there's pros and cons for both systems.
austec for : can be diagnosed by any tvr garage with the dealer software, is unnoticeable for insurance pirposes etc, is cheaper for a one-off mapping session.
cons : only austec can remap so no chance for owner-fiddling. if you upgrade your car again afterwards you need austec to remap again.
emerald for : is user-configurable so set your own shift light / rev limit (hard and soft), fan cut-ins etc etc. Any competent rolling road can remap it if you upgrade your engine with the mods coming on-stream soon. you get to play at mapping and can return the unit to std again if you make a eff-up! not affected to the same degree by the TVR throttle pot issues.
cons : it's more expensive if you don't go on to remap later. dealer's cant use their software to diagnose, can always put mbe back in though.
think that's a fair appraisal.
Joolz,
When I spoke to Dave Walker @ emerald during the summer he stated that the MBE unit would switch off the air-con unit automatically over 5000(ish)revs to allow for more power when accelerating!
I didn't know that you lost it all together but I'm glad you know your stuff.
Tripps,
I've not fully made my mind up I've been talking to Motec and Austec as they can now run 2 completely separate maps on their chip to allow for switching between normal driving and using the NOS.
To be honest I'll probably will go down the Austec route basically due to the twin maps and ease of having them set it all up!
When I spoke to Dave Walker @ emerald during the summer he stated that the MBE unit would switch off the air-con unit automatically over 5000(ish)revs to allow for more power when accelerating!
I didn't know that you lost it all together but I'm glad you know your stuff.
Tripps,
I've not fully made my mind up I've been talking to Motec and Austec as they can now run 2 completely separate maps on their chip to allow for switching between normal driving and using the NOS.
To be honest I'll probably will go down the Austec route basically due to the twin maps and ease of having them set it all up!
interesting, I've never heard of that one before .. in reality the air con should be switching in and out on the clutch all the time, the only times it's one constantly is if the system pressure is down and the system generally is struggling to cool the air.
I'm sure Dave at Emerald told me that dual maps are possible in their system .. never needed to look at it so haven't investigated further .. however I *do* know that a simple ignition trim can be done on a fixed % level in forthcoming systems , so you could have different power outputs depending what gear you're in .. on a normally aspirated engine it'd be difficult to lose much power to make a difference by doing this, but on forced induction engines it becomes a real solution as the emerald can control electric wastegates.
Don't know what the time scale was on that, but Dave was talking about a host of interesting features in forthcoming ECUs .. food for thought anyway, might be worth giving him another bell to find out more details.
I'm sure Dave at Emerald told me that dual maps are possible in their system .. never needed to look at it so haven't investigated further .. however I *do* know that a simple ignition trim can be done on a fixed % level in forthcoming systems , so you could have different power outputs depending what gear you're in .. on a normally aspirated engine it'd be difficult to lose much power to make a difference by doing this, but on forced induction engines it becomes a real solution as the emerald can control electric wastegates.
Don't know what the time scale was on that, but Dave was talking about a host of interesting features in forthcoming ECUs .. food for thought anyway, might be worth giving him another bell to find out more details.
Tripps said:
Do either offer a greater degree of mapping granularity at all?
erm, haven't a clue what you mean there, but I think you're asking maybe does either system offer greater scope for fine trimming of fuelling / ignition over and above the std offering? ..
.. well can't answer for teh mbe remap, i assume they use the same throttle / speed sites but just get it right where the factory got it wrong ..
I know on the Emerald that Karl biases the small-throttle opening sites closer together than on other emerald ECUs, to get over the massive rate of change of airflow as the throttle is opened, and I always run with the remapped throttles open further than std and retard the timing to get the throttle response better than on the mbe .. but how the closed-up throttle sites compare to the mbe site positions I have no idea.
i guess that doesn't really answer your question does it? doh.
This all sounds like good stuff, I'm considering this option (Emerald) for the drivability gains.
Does the Emerald hook into the alarm (immobiliser function) like the MBE. If it doesn't, that could affect insurance.
Which leads me on to, how much (if any) have peoples premiums increased by after changing the ECU to the Emerald?
Does the Emerald hook into the alarm (immobiliser function) like the MBE. If it doesn't, that could affect insurance.
Which leads me on to, how much (if any) have peoples premiums increased by after changing the ECU to the Emerald?
simonsparrow said:
Maybe I'm jumping to the wrong conclusions, but I thought there was some connection as after 20 secs (after un-alarming the car)the power to the car can remain on, but you can't start it.
This is because the immobiliser interrupts the starter circuit and the fuel pump, but it has nothing to do with the management system.
joospeed said:Thanks Joolz I did mean just about that, but was thinking from an IT (I used to do some chip programming for my sins) rather than automotive view point.
erm, haven't a clue what you mean there, but I think you're asking maybe does either system offer greater scope for fine trimming of fuelling / ignition over and above the std offering? ..
But understanding met in the middle
As usual Joolz has given an even-handed and candid appraisal. The purpose of this post is to offer some inside information about the MBE system, not to take a shot at anything else.
The MBE system has an impeccable pedigree, and the company can trace it's origins back to the Lucas-Micos Formula One systems. Most of their efforts now seem to be directed at the OEM market, where the incredibly tight emissions and diagnostic requirements dictate extreme accuracy and repeatability.
Large financial resources, fine minds, and many years have produced the MBE system. So personally I'm happy that it is one of the very best systems you can get. Certainly I am unaware of any other others that could have got the AJP V8 through manufacturer's emission testing.
Although the ECU looks similar to the 941 and 970 MBE after-market ECUs, it runs a unique version of the software written especially for TVR. Sadly it cannot be mapped with the usual EasiMap system. We have had to invest a lot of time and effort to extract the secrets!
The MBE system features 16 load and 32 speed sites. Of course the load progression is mappable - although to be fair this is perfectly satisfactory as it comes from TVR.
With the MBE sytem, the air con is disengaged at high RPM (programmable - a standard feature with high-end management systems such as the Omex 700, Motec and Lucas 14CUX systems). This is because you will only be there momentarily, and the A/C compressor will consume noticeable power. Also I suspect that the compressor may not enjoy being whizzed around that fast either. The ECU also acts to stabilise the idle when the compressor is engaged by managing the ignition timing.
Obviously if you go the MBE route, then absolutely nothing changes functionally. Apart from the fact that it goes, drives, starts and idles better of course!
With regard to the cooling fans, we are now offering an industrial quality microprocessor temperature monitoring and fan management unit. Joolz has rightly pointed out the dimness of running only one fan, because the air does indeed do a loop-the-loop in and out of the static fan. Therefore both fans are run together, at least at half speed up to full speed as required. Half-speed starts are both quiet, and reduce the electrical and physical load (via the alternator) on the vehicle.
One of the most important things to consider when you make your choice of system is the level of support you get. With either Austec or Joospeed, you can be certain of this. Although I find the Emerald system somewhat basic for my needs, Joolz has a very good relationship with the guys and they are very helpful. Indeed that is the whole reason why a special AJP V8 version exists.
I do know the company (Dave Walker), and have even dyno'd a car or two on his rollers when they were under the railway arches in a slightly dodgy bit of London (where the Emerald system was born).
Support is the reason why I prefer Omex as an aftermarket system (apart from excellent specs and pricing!) - amazing support and helpfulness. Nothing is too much trouble for them.
Once the car has been set up, then there should be no need to alter the mapping unless other tuning work is carried out. It's either right or not. The idea of fiddling with it on the driveway is only required if the system cannot compensate correctly for battery voltages, atmospheric conditions, etc.
Personally I only ever map my own car on the dyno, because I can't do it without all the support equipment. I have remapped several "mapped on the road" (yes even with a Lambda sensor) installations for some smart people - and I've never yet seen one that was even close.
Many beginners can get the full power ignition and fuel right, but that's only 5% of the job. Making it drive nicely, start properly, and (most difficult of all) settle onto idle is where the experience and skill comes in. There is a sorcerer's apprentice element to it, and I've only come across three other people in the world who's abilities I respect (and whom I have learnt from).
Although this might sound like a job preservation scheme, consider this. If you need your teeth fixed, do you:
a) get a book from the library, and do it yourself (fun and cheap, but messy)
b) be the first appointment for the new graduate (cheap, hygienic, but not fun)
c) go to someone experienced (not cheap, but painless and effective)
I would never advise anyone to go to a dyno where they were not familiar with both the engine and the management system.
Hopefully you're still awake - thank you for taking the trouble to read this far.
PS for Joolz - my spell checker offers "Cool" for "Joolz"! How did you fix that then???
The MBE system has an impeccable pedigree, and the company can trace it's origins back to the Lucas-Micos Formula One systems. Most of their efforts now seem to be directed at the OEM market, where the incredibly tight emissions and diagnostic requirements dictate extreme accuracy and repeatability.
Large financial resources, fine minds, and many years have produced the MBE system. So personally I'm happy that it is one of the very best systems you can get. Certainly I am unaware of any other others that could have got the AJP V8 through manufacturer's emission testing.
Although the ECU looks similar to the 941 and 970 MBE after-market ECUs, it runs a unique version of the software written especially for TVR. Sadly it cannot be mapped with the usual EasiMap system. We have had to invest a lot of time and effort to extract the secrets!
The MBE system features 16 load and 32 speed sites. Of course the load progression is mappable - although to be fair this is perfectly satisfactory as it comes from TVR.
With the MBE sytem, the air con is disengaged at high RPM (programmable - a standard feature with high-end management systems such as the Omex 700, Motec and Lucas 14CUX systems). This is because you will only be there momentarily, and the A/C compressor will consume noticeable power. Also I suspect that the compressor may not enjoy being whizzed around that fast either. The ECU also acts to stabilise the idle when the compressor is engaged by managing the ignition timing.
Obviously if you go the MBE route, then absolutely nothing changes functionally. Apart from the fact that it goes, drives, starts and idles better of course!
With regard to the cooling fans, we are now offering an industrial quality microprocessor temperature monitoring and fan management unit. Joolz has rightly pointed out the dimness of running only one fan, because the air does indeed do a loop-the-loop in and out of the static fan. Therefore both fans are run together, at least at half speed up to full speed as required. Half-speed starts are both quiet, and reduce the electrical and physical load (via the alternator) on the vehicle.
One of the most important things to consider when you make your choice of system is the level of support you get. With either Austec or Joospeed, you can be certain of this. Although I find the Emerald system somewhat basic for my needs, Joolz has a very good relationship with the guys and they are very helpful. Indeed that is the whole reason why a special AJP V8 version exists.
I do know the company (Dave Walker), and have even dyno'd a car or two on his rollers when they were under the railway arches in a slightly dodgy bit of London (where the Emerald system was born).
Support is the reason why I prefer Omex as an aftermarket system (apart from excellent specs and pricing!) - amazing support and helpfulness. Nothing is too much trouble for them.
Once the car has been set up, then there should be no need to alter the mapping unless other tuning work is carried out. It's either right or not. The idea of fiddling with it on the driveway is only required if the system cannot compensate correctly for battery voltages, atmospheric conditions, etc.
Personally I only ever map my own car on the dyno, because I can't do it without all the support equipment. I have remapped several "mapped on the road" (yes even with a Lambda sensor) installations for some smart people - and I've never yet seen one that was even close.
Many beginners can get the full power ignition and fuel right, but that's only 5% of the job. Making it drive nicely, start properly, and (most difficult of all) settle onto idle is where the experience and skill comes in. There is a sorcerer's apprentice element to it, and I've only come across three other people in the world who's abilities I respect (and whom I have learnt from).
Although this might sound like a job preservation scheme, consider this. If you need your teeth fixed, do you:
a) get a book from the library, and do it yourself (fun and cheap, but messy)
b) be the first appointment for the new graduate (cheap, hygienic, but not fun)
c) go to someone experienced (not cheap, but painless and effective)
I would never advise anyone to go to a dyno where they were not familiar with both the engine and the management system.
Hopefully you're still awake - thank you for taking the trouble to read this far.
PS for Joolz - my spell checker offers "Cool" for "Joolz"! How did you fix that then???
Hi Mark.
Always a pleasure to read your posts.
I had never heard about the air-con cut at high revs, I did speak to John Ravenscroft about teh air-con / idle management on the cerbie .. they used to add ignition advance when the air-con was on to bring the idle up slightly, but on later cars dispensed with that function as it was only partially succesful he said .. they just used the ignition advance to maintain the idle speed rather than add to the speed on later cars if you see what i mean.
I'll do an earth-switched relay off the emerald for high revs to disengage the air con compressor feed to achieve the same result I run a relay on the conversion anyway, and have never liked the way TVR switch the air-con on these cars
On my spell check Mark Adams comes out as Mapping Guru ..
Always a pleasure to read your posts.
I had never heard about the air-con cut at high revs, I did speak to John Ravenscroft about teh air-con / idle management on the cerbie .. they used to add ignition advance when the air-con was on to bring the idle up slightly, but on later cars dispensed with that function as it was only partially succesful he said .. they just used the ignition advance to maintain the idle speed rather than add to the speed on later cars if you see what i mean.
I'll do an earth-switched relay off the emerald for high revs to disengage the air con compressor feed to achieve the same result
I run a relay on the conversion anyway, and have never liked the way TVR switch the air-con on these cars On my spell check Mark Adams comes out as Mapping Guru ..
Mark,
Thanks for your input I'm starting to understand a little better what is available, and everything seems to be persuading me to go for the Austec/MBE option, not because the other options are bad, simply as they are quite close to me.
What sort of price are we talking for Omex ECU and tuning though?
Thanks for your input I'm starting to understand a little better what is available, and everything seems to be persuading me to go for the Austec/MBE option, not because the other options are bad, simply as they are quite close to me.
What sort of price are we talking for Omex ECU and tuning though?
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